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Old 04-25-2010, 11:08 AM
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Default Right vs Left. Who Will Win?

I'm SICK of this everlasting confrontation between right and left. It's empty and just repeats over and over again what others have said. Some typical arguments:

"Capitalism is EVIL, it's based on the greed of a few ones and the proletariat needs to be free against this unfair oppression."
"Communism is EVIL, it hasn't worked before and won't do it now; and it has produced the greatest slaughters in human history. We can only expect it to bring an equal share of misery, not wealth."

So please be somewhat original when it comes to discuss this kind of topics or the debate will become pointless. I suggest to focus your attention in what values they promote and what their basis are, instead of just repeating Smith's and Marx's sentences. Also, there is a debate element called the concession: "I admit/concede Communist systems had been in the past oppressive and unfair; but..."

It doesn't have to be necessarily a battle between the two positions either. That's Cold-War-ish. Instead...
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Last edited by ZenitYerkes; 04-25-2010 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
I'm SICK of this everlasting confrontation between right and left. It's empty and just repeats over and over again what others have said. Some typical arguments:

"Capitalism is EVIL, it's based on the greed of a few ones and the proletariat needs to be free against this unfair oppression."
"Communism is EVIL, it hasn't worked before and won't do it now; and it has produced the greatest slaughters in human history. We can only expect it to bring an equal share of misery, not wealth."

So please be somewhat original when it comes to discuss this kind of topics or the debate will become pointless. I suggest to focus your attention in what values they promote and what their basis are, instead of just repeating Smith's and Marx's sentences. Also, there is a debate element called the concession: "I admit/concede Communist systems had been in the past oppressive and unfair; but..."

It doesn't have to be necessarily a battle between the two positions either. That's Cold-War-ish. Instead...
I am an advocate for neither of those systems. I believe in socialism. I started my Socialists Unite thread to adress the deeper issues surrounding the Right vs Left debacle. Throughout the next few months I will be adding increasingly intelligable content to that thread. To further my own knowledge and understanding while benefiting others also.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:04 PM
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My own personal view is that no system works. In everyone's little cerebrals, they think their own system is the best. Spock thinks left is best, Woodsprite/PM think right is best. Many think centrism is best, many think anarchy is best, many think theocracy is best, etc, etc. Yet at the same time, all these people have evidence that their own system is the best and that the others don't work.

Obviously someone's going to end up disappointed. Could it be EVERYONE?!?!?!
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Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 04-25-2010 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 04-25-2010, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
My own personal view is that no system works. In everyone's little cerebrals, they think their own system is the best. Spock thinks left is best, Woodsprite/PM think right is best. Many think centrism is best, many think anarchy is best, many think theocracy is best, etc, etc. Yet at the same time, all these people have evidence that their own system is the best and that the others don't work.

Obviously someone's going to end up disappointed. Could it be EVERYONE?!?!?!
That was the safest, most on-the-fence response I've ever seen!
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:38 PM
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Does the right hand smack the left hand out of mockery and deceit? On the same coin, does the left hand incur such actions to the right hand? How would one react when they're both in the same body?

Think about it...

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Old 04-25-2010, 09:39 PM
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I alsways find it funny when people talk about left in right.

The interesting thing is that the right wing is not a unified group and represents views that are often conflicting.

First of all there are those who believe in the corporate world. They effectively believe that the world should be owned and controlled by coporations rather than by governments. They are not interested in personal freedom or rewarding for merit (although they often claim they are), but wish to increase the wealth and power of a small group of people who have no other skills rather than to manipulate corporations. This is potentially the most dangerous of the right-wingers because they have huge resources at hand. Also their support is essential to create a militarised fascist govenrment.

Then there are the libertarians who are effectively unltr-liberal, although right-wing Americans would be offended by this term. Libertarians are basically the opposite of Comminists because they believe that everything should be free from governement internvetion. They usually believe that the free market in its pure form is the best form of society and economics. They also effectively belive in a meritocracy where those who work the hrdest should get the biggest gains. In principle, liberatarians should be at odds with Corporations because corporations stifle competition, can stifle personal freedoms if given political power and because corporations by their nature are not meritocracies, as promotions and position are given as a result of political manovering but not merit. Just like Comminism, Libertarisim is a Utopian ideal which attempts to bring fairness to all. But just like communism it is a impossible ideal in human society, as the free market is not perfect. Ironically, there is very little difference between a true libertarian on the right and a true anarchists on the left. They are effectively the same except in the detail.

Religious/cultural conservativism - The proponents of this case usually want to impose their religious or cultural beliefs on society whether society believes it or not. In practice, they should actually be in conflict with Libertarians as they latter want unrestricted freedom. If the religious/cultural consertatives can ally with the corporations and industrialists, it can lead to a fascist state.

The Monarchists - I use this term losely to mean any group that desires a particular person or dynasty as rulers of a country. Again, if you have a monarchist allied with corporations and religious/cultural conservatives, you can have a fascists state. In saying that it is possible that the head of the ruling group could be progressive in nature.

The racists/race supremacists - In principle anybody who is racists is labelled right wing. In reality racists are not for anything, they are against a certain group of people and believe in the mistaken supremacy of their own race the inferiority of all others. They can potentially side with the Corporations, religious/cultural conservatives and monarchists to form an fascist state like Nazi Germany. But in theory they are diamertically opposed to the Libertarians who should not believe in racism as people should be judged on merit.

So as you can see, I believe there are many forms of right wingers and most of the times they don't agree with each other. And in fact there is one element, the Libertarians who should not agree at all with any of the other factions if they are true to their own principles. So in my opinion, it is very difficult to generalize about right wingers.

The left wing is as diverse as the right and has its own whacky and contradictory factions who don't agree with each other. But that's another story.
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
That was the safest, most on-the-fence response I've ever seen!
Why thank you. (I think? ).
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
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