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Old 07-12-2010, 10:34 AM
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Default The Original Sin. (Religion)

Now, in the bible it talks of 'Adam' and 'Eve' in the Garden of Eden. Most of us know this story, and that Eve ate the forbidden apple and both her and adam got banished from the garden and forced to live on earth.

Now, I wish to note something here, I really do believe this to be a metaphor, it wasn't a sin. Eve didn't 'sin' by going after the apple, instead she wanted the apple, not because she wanted to disobey, but because it was something she couldn't have. It's a flaw of human nature, but it's what makes us human.

Eve didn't sin, instead she followed her instinct, which led to her and adam's demise.
-> All Humans have flaws, but that doesn't make them bad.

Also the apple can be seen as not an apple, but as 'intelligence.' Eve wanted to know how things worked so grasped after this 'information.' and was caught by god, it's literally an old version of exactly what's going on today!
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:48 AM
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Since I was taught Catholic and I'm still being taught by the Jesuits; I was told that most of the Old Testament, specially the first books, are primarily metaphors and stories which passed from generation to generation through oral tradition. Not supposed to be something scientifically accurate since there was no actual science then.

As an Agnostic, I think the Bible itself has a great content yet a very particular way to express it. The message of the Bible, for me, it's not the words or the verses: it's what's beneath them.

I am not Christian but I think the Bible shouldn't be thrown away or taken out of any consideration, precisely because of this message.

The message of the Genesis Book, as I record, shows how Mankind tends to act badly (in accordance to Jewish and Christian values), and how God punishes such bad actions. Has a big moral content, but teaches it however in a violent and punishing way.

I guess it was the only way to convince people how not to kill each other by then.
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Last edited by ZenitYerkes; 07-12-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 01:20 PM
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In the Baha'i Faith, the writings support the concept that the story of Adam and Eve is allogorical not literal. "Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions. The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world."

Also the Baha'i Faith does not support the idea of therefore everyone is 'fallen' and 'born sinful'. Baha’i’s take the opposite view of human nature. We believe that humans are inherently noble, “A mine rich in gems of inestimable value”. We can choose to polish these gems and express our true nature, or we can ignore our true selves and fall into great degradation.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:42 PM
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That's a very interesting thought Lyra I never would have thought it.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:23 PM
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Agreed, it could just be a metaphore for something else, like as Lyra said, just knowledge.

...But what I really don't get is why Hollywood always portrays "original sin" as sex. Where did that idea come from??
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Agreed, it could just be a metaphore for something else, like as Lyra said, just knowledge.

...But what I really don't get is why Hollywood always portrays "original sin" as sex. Where did that idea come from??
Are you talking about like celebrities? Or in movies? I don't really watch very many movies or follow celebrities so maybe some examples would be nice =].
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Elyannia View Post
Are you talking about like celebrities? Or in movies? I don't really watch very many movies or follow celebrities so maybe some examples would be nice =].
There're just references here and there throughout movies and television that mention it, or talk about it. Off the top of my head, "The Three Musketeers" has a woman getting all horny when Aramis starts reading from the Genesis passage, and mentions how talking about "original sin" makes her become impassioned, etc. etc. There's even a film called "Original Sin" w/Angelina Jolie all about sex (or mostly, at least; I've never seen it, but I know what it's about). I really don't understand the concept, or where it came from. I've gotta look this up more.

EDIT: Ok, I get it. The concept was founded by Augustine, and is mostly found in some forms of Catholic doctrine (though not in the Catechism; I've read it twice and never found anything like that). PsychologyToday said, "Adam's sin was carnal knowledge." Britannica also makes a subtle reference to it in saying that the "knowledge of good and evil" was "a classic expression for all knowledge."

But I can't understand what any of these sources, including Augustine, would be thinking, since the chapter just before says,
Quote:
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it..."

-From Gen. 1:28
The act they both committed wasn't done simultaneously, since Adam came later and Eve gave him the "fruit"... Original sin, IMO, is just disobedience.

Last edited by Woodsprite; 07-12-2010 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
There're just references here and there throughout movies and television that mention it, or talk about it. Of the top of my head, "The Three Musketeers" has a woman getting all horny when Aramis starts reading from the Genesis passage, and mentions how talking about "original sin" makes her become impassioned, etc. etc. There's even a film called "Original Sin" w/Angelina Jolie all about sex (or mostly, at least; I've never seen it, but I know what it's about). I really don't understand the concept, or where it came from. I've gotta look this up more.
That's really interesting. I don't really understand it either lol.
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"We were given: Two hands to hold. To legs to walk. Two eyes to see. Two ears to listen. But why only one heart? Because the other was given to someone else. For us to find."

"Gandhi said that whatever you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it because nobody else will. Like when someone comes into your life and half of you says: 'You're nowhere near ready'. And the other half says: 'Make her yours forever'."-Remember Me

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"-Mahatma Gandhi

"It can't rain all the time"-The Crow
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:17 PM
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Its bizarre since original sin had nothing to do with sex at all. I wonder where they got that from too.
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Old 07-12-2010, 07:24 PM
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Who knows? Religious leaders have added all sorts of odd little bits to the faith to suit it to the beliefs of the areas they taught in through out the years. Either to aid in conversions or because it didn't fit any other way.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:30 PM
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It's a 'don't question what we tell you' metaphor. Perfect to facilitate brainwashing.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:12 PM
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Mm. Well, as George Carlin says, and there's quite a few good videos on YouTube of him saying this...

"It's all about authority. Teaching people to follow authority."

Throughout all parables, books etc, people are constantly taught what they should be doing... The Good Samaritan... Et cetera. There's a lot to it. All I see the garden of Eden tale as is "A fear tactic. Follow 'x' or 'y' will happen."

Although! Saying that- I'd be interested to hear a religious persons views on this. In the past; quite a few of my views have been changed. So... Any religious persons here? I would love to hear your opinion on this.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mune View Post

Throughout all parables, books etc, people are constantly taught what they should be doing... The Good Samaritan... Et cetera. There's a lot to it. All I see the garden of Eden tale as is "A fear tactic. Follow 'x' or 'y' will happen."

Although! Saying that- I'd be interested to hear a religious persons views on this. In the past; quite a few of my views have been changed. So... Any religious persons here? I would love to hear your opinion on this.
Ok, I'll bite . We believe that God created this entire universe out of love. He specifically created man for love and for Man to love Him. He gave him the perfect life: no worries, no hate, no fear, no disease, etc. He gave him paradise. He gave him total communion with his spouse. All out of love. He said that all the trees in the garden were good to eat, except one. That tree should be left untouched: the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

However, there was someone else in the garden who hated God and hated man. So much so that he went out of his way to destroy the close communion that God and man had in paradise. In order to do that, he went after the woman. Why? In a sense its because she has greater influence on man. He said that if she and the man ate the fruit of the tree that they would be as gods. They would know everything. She decided to do it and with that came not a god-like knowledge but shame and lost innocence. For this, they had to leave paradise and work and suffer.

Of course, at this point of the story one would ask, why would it matter if they at the fruit or not? Why would God be so authoritarian? One of the answers could be this: we see God as father. This idea isn't new. Other religions see God as a father of some sort. We see Him as our father. The one who created us out of nothing. How He physically created us is up for debate of course. I think this is where science can help in such matters.
Since we see it from the perspective of family then we would see the story of the Fall as man, God's children, disobeying a simple order.

There is another point to be made in regards to the story. After Adam and Eve realize they are naked (this is meant in its physical/spiritual/mental states), they try to sew some fig leaves together and hide. When God searches for them, He asks why they are hiding and if they had eaten the fruit. Adam doesn't take any responsibility for it. He blames Eve. She in turn blames the snake (aka. devil). They blame someone else instead of taking responsibility for themselves so for that and the fact that they ate the fruit, they had to leave paradise. Their innocence was lost. Pain and sorrow has entered the world. This is the origin of original sin. All of us are wounded by it. However, it isn't the end of the story, thankfully.

Another image that we have for God is shepherd and we are the sheep. By staying in the fold, we are safe from wolves and other predators. We are free within the fold but outside of it, we are at the mercy of the elements and other things that harm us. It is because of this belief that there are prohibitions against certain things, most which will harm us. I know that to often the "authoritarian" part of religion is emphasized which is sad. Sure, the "do nots" are part of it but that honestly isn't the main part of religion. To us, the rules, so to speak, actually is a means to freedom. In a well-ordered environment, one can grow better, be more creative, etc. In a chaotic environment, its every man out for himself with no direction.

We also believe that everything has its time and place. There is a time to be merry by socializing with friends, etc in joyful moderation. There is a time to make love. There is a time to sleep. There is a time to work, to dream, to laugh, to cry. Everything has its time and place and all in moderation.

The stories that you mention, especially the parables are there to teach us what we are to do. The Good Samaritan is a very good one because it teaches us that we are supposed to have charity for everyone. Every person that we encounter is our neighbor. The larger context of the Good Samaritan story is that a young rich man asks Jesus what he must do to gain eternal life. Jesus asks, what does the law say. The man says that you are to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus says that he answers well and to follow that simple law and the man would gain eternal life but the man was perplexed and he asks who is his neighbor. It is at this point that Jesus tells him a story of the Good Samaritan.

See, the young man, like so many in that time down to the present thought that all he had to do was just follow rules. To him, that is all that religion was. However, that isn't what it is. Sure, there are rules but the most important part is charity. Jesus is telling him that we must love and show compassion on others. It is not enough to just say you believe in God and then be cruel and hateful. Sadly, some religious people have been this way for so many centuries. It is painful to me and to others like me because we are lumped in with the hateful ones. They give such a terrible name to my beloved Lord and my faith . I try to show compassion and love to others even when others insult me. That is what I must do because it is right to do.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyra View Post
Now, in the bible it talks of 'Adam' and 'Eve' in the Garden of Eden. Most of us know this story, and that Eve ate the forbidden apple and both her and adam got banished from the garden and forced to live on earth.

Now, I wish to note something here, I really do believe this to be a metaphor, it wasn't a sin. Eve didn't 'sin' by going after the apple, instead she wanted the apple, not because she wanted to disobey, but because it was something she couldn't have. It's a flaw of human nature, but it's what makes us human.

Eve didn't sin, instead she followed her instinct, which led to her and adam's demise.
-> All Humans have flaws, but that doesn't make them bad.

Also the apple can be seen as not an apple, but as 'intelligence.' Eve wanted to know how things worked so grasped after this 'information.' and was caught by god, it's literally an old version of exactly what's going on today!
You are right, but yet completely wrong, The Ten Commandments say, Honor thy father and mother, I.E. Dont disobey them, Eve disobeyed her "father" by eating the fruit after they were told not to by God, therefore going against the Ten Commandments, therefore being a sin.
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Last edited by X.,.Pandora.,.X; 07-12-2010 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:52 PM
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^I sort of agree with that, but the Ten Commandments weren't written yet. I think it was just obvious that you don't disobey a Being that created you. I mean, that'd be like a CD player that refuses to play. It either gets fixed, or if it can't be fixed, is thrown out.

Same existed with Adam and Eve to an extent. Since they couldn't be "fixed" (since the damage had been done, and they disobeyed God) they were "thrown out" of the garden.
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