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  #1  
Old 07-16-2010, 04:06 AM
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Simple, yet not so simple question: Fate and free will. Looking for the ultimate proof of our freedom or slavery.

Do we choose by ourselves or just play the roles we are given? Is this a mutable Universe or a simple play where we are the actors, and the world is the scenery?

Cause-consequence, yes. We don't choose our circumstances and we can't act without a situation where to start to work on; however, we can decide how we act on the circumstances and how they affect us. Or is this choice also affected by previous experiences?

Can we decide or are we mere objects just doing our work, serving for our own commitment?

Fate for me at least, however, would mean someone else above us knowing what we are already going to do. And I don't believe in omniscient gods.

But can I choose in what I believe? Or is that choice actually a product of what I've seen, what I've experienced and what I felt?

Are we just machines with conscience of themselves which programs are in constant update by our surroundings, or have we got something else?

Condemned to choose or subjugated to reality?

Questions nobody has the answers to... or at least, that is what I believe.
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Last edited by ZenitYerkes; 07-16-2010 at 04:11 AM.
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  #2  
Old 07-16-2010, 04:17 AM
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We make time as we go along.

Well, I seem to think so.
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2010, 05:07 AM
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This part caught my eye,

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Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
Fate for me at least, however, would mean someone else above us knowing what we are already going to do. And I don't believe in omniscient gods.
Well, I don't think it does. Fate is more of an unconscious configuration of events that happens on its own; no god(s) required. I personally believe in a God that knows what will happen to everything at all times, but knowing something doesn't necessarily mean controlling it.

God or no god, "fate" is a series of events that doesn't have an alternative outcome. It isn't a spiritual concept. As Sonoran already said so well in another thread,

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Originally Posted by Sonoran Na'vi View Post
...I believe the illusion of freewill is what can be reconciled with the presence of fate as we have the illusion of choice without actually having a choice.

Last edited by Woodsprite; 07-16-2010 at 05:10 AM.
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2010, 12:35 PM
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No.

Seriously though, it's not even plausible in any conceivable way.

But supposing that all of this were a some sort of cosmic play, then whoever wrote the script is even more incompetent, uncreative and boring than me, and that's saying a lot.
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  #5  
Old 07-17-2010, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquaplant View Post
No.

Seriously though, it's not even plausible in any conceivable way.

But supposing that all of this were a some sort of cosmic play, then whoever wrote the script is even more incompetent, uncreative and boring than me, and that's saying a lot.
This.

Nothing is set in stone until it has happened. Right now, I could keep posting, I could go to sleep, I could go and get drunk, I could go out and be in the right place at the right time and find 500, or I could get run over by a car. Because each decision or random chance affects future events, everything is a consequence of millions of events big and small... small changes in happenings can easily lead to a huge change in the future, or even a small but unexpected one though a domino effect.
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  #6  
Old 07-17-2010, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Nothing is set in stone until it has happened. Right now, I could keep posting, I could go to sleep, I could go and get drunk, I could go out and be in the right place at the right time and find 500, or I could get run over by a car. Because each decision or random chance affects future events, everything is a consequence of millions of events big and small... small changes in happenings can easily lead to a huge change in the future, or even a small but unexpected one though a domino effect.
Ah, but you only think you're being random, when you're actually setting out to do exactly what you're supposed to.

You could go get drunk, and you could get run over, but you aren't going out now... Or maybe you will. Doesn't matter; that's the point. You would always be bound by the inevitable. You may walk down the street in a straight line and suddenly change direction. You may think you've changed the future, but you've just fullfilled what you would've always done.

I believe "free will" is basically a fancy way of saying "lack of knowledge for the future". If we don't know what will happen, we are technically making our own choices. But in the end, we're all doing exactly what we would've done all the time. In other words, it's impossible for there to be any "alternate universe" where different choices lead to different futures, because time is limited to single line of events, not two, or three, or five.

There won't ever be another time ever again where I'll have the luxury of going back on this day and making different choices, because time is constant, and unwavering.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Ah, but you only think you're being random, when you're actually setting out to do exactly what you're supposed to.
Supposed to do? Who says what I'm "supposed" to do?

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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
You could go get drunk, and you could get run over, but you aren't going out now... Or maybe you will. Doesn't matter; that's the point. You would always be bound by the inevitable. You may walk down the street in a straight line and suddenly change direction. You may think you've changed the future, but you've just fullfilled what you would've always done.
You're not bound by the inevitable, you determine your own future.

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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
I believe "free will" is basically a fancy way of saying "lack of knowledge for the future". If we don't know what will happen, we are technically making our own choices. But in the end, we're all doing exactly what we would've done all the time. In other words, it's impossible for there to be any "alternate universe" where different choices lead to different futures, because time is limited to single line of events, not two, or three, or five.
"Lack of knowledge of the future." You're right, it's as simple as that. We don't know what's going to happen, no one does. That's why the future is always changing. Nothing is set, nothing is predetermined.

Also, it's not impossible, it's your belief that there are no alternate universes.

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There won't ever be another time ever again where I'll have the luxury of going back on this day and making different choices, because time is constant, and unwavering.
So far.
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  #8  
Old 07-17-2010, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Supposed to do? Who says what I'm "supposed" to do?
I meant that you're future is technically already there, you just have to do it first.

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Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
You're not bound by the inevitable, you determine your own future.
Yes, I know. All I'm saying is that the future you decide for yourself is already there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
"Lack of knowledge of the future." You're right, it's as simple as that. We don't know what's going to happen, no one does. That's why the future is always changing. Nothing is set, nothing is predetermined.
Mmm... I don't think so. I do believe you make your own future, but the future exists as a time period, not a place. What I'm saying is, you can do whatever you wish, but it always would've happened because you did something in the present. It can't be changed afterward, so who's to say it was ever changed at all?


...Say I talked to God, for example. Atheist or not, whatever: hypothetical situation. Conversation--



Me: What am I going to do in 10 seconds?

God: I couldn't tell you.

Me: Why?

God: Because it isn't for you to know.

Me: Why?

God: What if I asked you if you could tell me how many hairs were on your head right at this instant?

Me: I couldn't tell you.

God: You just did what I told you you'd do in 10 seconds.

Me: Huh?

God: You asked what you were going to do in 10 seconds, and I said, "I couldn't tell you," and after precisely 10 seconds you said just those words.

Me: But I thought you meant you really couldn't tell me.

God: I did mean that.

Me: But you said that you didn't.

God: No I didn't.

Me: So, you meant it both ways?

God: You just determined your own future for the past minute by continuing to talk with me.

Me: So?

God: I already knew you would.

Me: But I was the one who determined it.

God: Yes, you were.

Me: So how could you know?

God: I know.

Me: But that would mean I wouldn't have free will.

God: No, that would mean I just know, and wouldn't ever tell you. You can make all your choices, and I would know them. But just because I know what you'll do or say doesn't mean I'm controlling your actions.

Me: But isn't the future changing from whatever we decide?

God: No, it's being fullfilled, whatever you decide.

Me: ...Which would mean we had no free will.

God: No, it would mean you're doing whatever you'd like, with me knowing all about it beforehand.



-----------------------------------------------------

Doesn't make any difference whether it was "God" who was talking, or the universe, or an embodiment of "Karma", or time itelf, or whatever. That's what I mean, though.

Last edited by Woodsprite; 07-17-2010 at 07:22 AM.
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2010, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
I meant that you're future is technically already there, you just have to do it first.
What if I do something different?

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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Yes, I know. All I'm saying is that the future you decide for yourself is already there.
Well, all I'm saying is that it isn't.
Gah, it's kind of hard to debate things you can't prove. ><

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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Mmm... I don't think so. I do believe you make your own future, but the future exists as a time period, not a place. What I'm saying is, you can do whatever you wish, but it always would've happened because you did something in the present. It can't be changed afterward, so who's to say it was ever changed at all?
Never said it was a place. You can't change the afterward future, because that would be the past, and you can't change the past.

Quote:
Me: But I was the one who determined it.

God: Yes, you were.

Me: So how could you know?

God: I know.
DO NOT QUESTION ME. I JUST KNOW. I AM ALL POWERFUL.

Lol, k, let me present you with my own hypothetical situation:

-I'm about to leave for a party.
-I decide not to go.
-Later, the club building explodes.
-Bam, future altered. I'm still alive.

I know you're going to hit me with "But you would've always been alive, that is your future." I just know it.
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Old 07-17-2010, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
What if I do something different?
You may think you did, but you just did what you'd always do.

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Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Gah, it's kind of hard to debate things you can't prove. ><
This is becoming more and more a comedical conversation than a debate.

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Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Never said it was a place. You can't change the afterward future, because that would be the past, and you can't change the past.
True.

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Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
DO NOT QUESTION ME. I JUST KNOW. I AM ALL POWERFUL.
Haha, I knew you'd say that!! If you don't like "God", replace him in the conversation with "Universe" or "Time".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Lol, k, let me present you with my own hypothetical situation:

-I'm about to leave for a party.
-I decide not to go.
-Later, the club building explodes.
-Bam, future altered. I'm still alive.

I know you're going to hit me with "But you would've always been alive, that is your future." I just know it.


*...thinks of something else to say*

...Ok, got one. You determined what you'd do, and it was your choice not to go. You could've died. You could've gone, but got delayed somehow and got close enough to the building so the blast would seriously injure you.

But it was your choice that led you away from going. You just never knew the future, and would've always made that choice, and just didn't know it at the time before you did.

...Damn, I used some of the same wording as you. YOU MADE MY FUTURE DAMN YOU!


Last edited by Woodsprite; 07-17-2010 at 07:58 AM.
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  #11  
Old 07-17-2010, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
You may think you did, but you just did what you'd always do.
But...but...how would you know that?

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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
...Ok, got one. You determined what you'd do, and it was your choice not to go. You could've died. You could've gone, but got delayed somehow and got close enough to the building so the blast would seriously injure you.

But it was your choice that led you away from going. You just never knew the future, and would've always made that choice, and just didn't know it at the time before you did.

...Damn, I used some of the same wording as you. YOU MADE MY FUTURE DAMN YOU!
You're right, I never knew the future. But my point wasn't that I would have not gone to the club either way, because that is obvious.

I understand where you're coming from now, though. The club was always going to explode. BUT. You didn't know whether or not I was going to go. What if I had a tummy ache, and decided to pass. You didn't know whether or not I was going to become ill. You ALSO wouldn't know whether I would tough it out or not, maybe I take an Advil, maybe I'm lazy and never shop and forgot to pick up Advil.

Simpler situation:

"Do you want me to shoot you?"

Is my future set? Because NOW all that is depending on my future is my decision and answer right at this point. Or does HE know all my decisions? What if I felt like saying "Yes" just to spite him?


Quote:
...Damn, I used some of the same wording as you. YOU MADE MY FUTURE DAMN YOU!
Lololol. WHO'S YOUR GOD NAO?
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Old 07-17-2010, 08:47 AM
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But...but...how would you know that?
Well I don't know. That's just what I believe.

...Well ok, I "know" it in the sense that I'm defying logic and reason to claim such. It's sort of an "I know" just because I have faith that it's true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
You're right, I never knew the future. But my point wasn't that I would have not gone to the club either way, because that is obvious.

I understand where you're coming from now, though. The club was always going to explode. BUT. You didn't know whether or not I was going to go. What if I had a tummy ache, and decided to pass. You didn't know whether or not I was going to become ill. You ALSO wouldn't know whether I would tough it out or not, maybe I take an Advil, maybe I'm lazy and never shop and forgot to pick up Advil.
Well I guess my point is pretty moot, then... because I'm arguing on a subject neither of us could possibly prove... or even show evidence for.

I would concede to say it is indeed possible that your hypothesis of choice is correct, since I can't really prove myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Simpler situation:

"Do you want me to shoot you?"

Is my future set? Because NOW all that is depending on my future is my decision and answer right at this point. Or does HE know all my decisions? What if I felt like saying "Yes" just to spite him?
Hmm... well, what if he knew you really didn't mean it, so he took out a .45 and aimed it at your head, was squeezing the trigger, and you suddenly said, "NO! NO you win. YOU WIN! "

But yes, I believe he'd already know your decision... but then, maybe he'd pull a Lawrence Olivier on you and you'd faint like Michael Caine in "Sleuth".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Lololol. WHO'S YOUR GOD NAO?


Last edited by Woodsprite; 07-17-2010 at 08:49 AM.
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  #13  
Old 07-17-2010, 09:07 AM
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You wouldn't know. You wouldn't know I would pussy out and beg for my life.

But okay, yeah; even though is on topic, this isn't getting anywhere. XD

I will say the same: It is possible that your hypothesis is correct, since I can't really prove myself, either.
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Old 07-17-2010, 09:15 AM
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Actually one final thing, just curious:

I'll make this one not about myself.

I have to shoot one of my three kids. The one that dies gives me a magic power.
1. is invisibility.
2. is telekenesis.
3. is flight.

ALSO, I am blindfolded, and have to shoot one of the kids at random. They are "shuffled" so to speak, and placed behind three opaque boxes.

So in THIS case, would he know what power I would get?
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Old 07-17-2010, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo View Post
Actually one final thing, just curious:

I'll make this one not about myself.

I have to shoot one of my three kids. The one that dies gives me a magic power.
1. is invisibility.
2. is telekenesis.
3. is flight.

ALSO, I am blindfolded, and have to shoot one of the kids at random. They are "shuffled" so to speak, and placed behind three opaque boxes.

So in THIS case, would he know what power I would get?
Well duh, if he knows the future then yeah.

Oh... s**t, did you just make a joke and I didn't get it?


Last edited by Woodsprite; 07-17-2010 at 10:45 AM.
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