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Old 07-18-2010, 10:48 AM
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Default Is This The Draw Of Pandora?

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Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes
It is not that Pandora is desirable because it represents a perfect, no disease, no famine, neither suffering nor problem-free paradise--
What Zenit raised here is something I have thought for quite a while now. We live in a clincal environment. Everything is done for us easily, no effort required. Therefore there is no sense of pleasure in much any more. Vital tasks such as gathering supplies like food and water are so easy to acquire that instead of the social and bonding aspect of -for example - hunting your prey, and the satisfaction that comes of a clean kill with something you have crafted and learned with your own fair hand, we just go to a shop and buy it.

I think perhaps one of the draws of Pandora herself is that there IS a certain danger, a certain sense of grit, dirt and (in all honesty) manual reality to things, it raises the stakes just that little bit higher. Stakes that in our modern world barely (perhaps in many cases don't) exist. Animals, plants, even the very environment is dangerous. Perhaps it sparks something primal within us that we all feel we need, a sense of adventure, a sense of threat.

It challenges our clinical world and takes us back to a time when we and what we did were real, not done through a proxy.
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Old 07-18-2010, 11:38 AM
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I completely agree. For me, that's the main attraction of Pandora, and the Na'vi.
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Old 07-18-2010, 01:31 PM
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Yes, we're turning weaker in terms of natural selection. If there was to be some kind of catastrophe, or a general breakdown, very few people would be likely to survive -at least, from the Western side. The rest of the world, specially Asians, are more hard working than us.

We are used to get everything done through machines and screens. We entertain ourselves with TV, comment its programs with out fellas, contact them via Twitter or Facebook and even meet our perfect mate with websites like Meetic. Everything comes from the supermarket, we don't care where out waste goes,....

The list keeps going but in a nutshell, we're directing our progress to not work at all. Thus we're turning lazy, fat, and useless, unnecessary as human beings.
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Old 07-18-2010, 02:32 PM
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Thing is our ancestors lived in rain-forests for ages , I saw a documentation about sounds of the woods a while ago , some professor was talking about how our ears got used to it's sounds and still are sharpened in a way like we still have to live in it .

I guess it's like a person that got taken away from it's roots , started a family and the persons kids want to know where they are coming from ,today we are living in a "clean" steal-concrete collosus that inhabits thousands if not even millions of us , and I guess it's just something familiar about Pandora , not only Pandora , but also the way the Na'Vi live together in their society , not by far comparable to what we call society in our world .

Pandora remembers us of whatwe could have , or still could have , but it was exchanged for the "safety" of the cold and cleansed world we are living in today .

It's the longing , the desire for something truely good we lost , don't/can't have and that's probably the thing that strikes someones heart the most .

But there has to be something about it , something about the world we are living in today that makes us want to turn our backs against it and find a new place ,and there is something in the world that is presented us as Pandora that attracts our attention and stands for what we desire as people .

So what is it with us that makes us drive out of the "safety" of our current "society" and start all over in a new/better place , I think it's because people deep in their hearts know that something is going wrong in this place and that they are pulled deeper by each day into a void they can't escape , the void of everyday monotone life that doesn't have to give us anything left , but boredom is only one part of the story , division of people is another and the feeling that we are losing a bit more of what is the most precious in life , with each day that passes by , our connection to nature which is being replaced part by part for "wealth", greed ,distrust ,envy and hate against each other and all the other false ideals that promise us hope , but will in the end just drain our lifeblood and the joy of life .

..And maybe , but only maybe the bioluminescence adds a BIG plus to the feeling that Pandora created , it truely looks like paradise and fills you with pure joy , I can't tell exactly what it is but it just makes you wanna jump through the screen and start your own discovery adventure , and I'm pretty sure each of us would give pretty much everything for just a single day on Pandora , at least that's what I can tell for myself , though it's cruel to be shown the paradise of your dreams , but letting you know at the same time , that it's intangable or that it probably doesn't even exist .
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Old 07-18-2010, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Thing is our ancestors lived in rain-forests for ages , I saw a documentation about sounds of the woods a while ago , some professor was talking about how our ears got used to it's sounds and still are sharpened in a way like we still have to live in it .
Yes, adaptation to the environment. Now all that got atrophied by the lack of use.

Quote:
I guess it's like a person that got taken away from it's roots , started a family and the persons kids want to know where they are coming from ,today we are living in a "clean" steal-concrete collosus that inhabits thousands if not even millions of us , and I guess it's just something familiar about Pandora , not only Pandora , but also the way the Na'Vi live together in their society , not by far comparable to what we call society in our world .

Pandora remembers us of what we could have , or still could have , but it was exchanged for the "safety" of the cold and cleansed world we are living in today .

It's the longing , the desire for something truely good we lost , don't/can't have and that's probably the thing that strikes someones heart the most .
"This is what we built. This is what we wanted. It must have been. Because we all had the f*cking choice, didn't we? It is only our money that allows commercial culture to flower. If we didn't want to live like this, we could have changed it at any time, by not ****ing paying for it." - Spider Jerusalem, Transmetropolitan

Quote:
But there has to be something about it , something about the world we are living in today that makes us want to turn our backs against it and find a new place ,and there is something in the world that is presented us as Pandora that attracts our attention and stands for what we desire as people .

So what is it with us that makes us drive out of the "safety" of our current "society" and start all over in a new/better place , I think it's because people deep in their hearts know that something is going wrong in this place and that they are pulled deeper by each day into a void they can't escape , the void of everyday monotone life that doesn't have to give us anything left , but boredom is only one part of the story , division of people is another and the feeling that we are losing a bit more of what is the most precious in life , with each day that passes by , our connection to nature which is being replaced part by part for "wealth", greed ,distrust ,envy and hate against each other and all the other false ideals that promise us hope , but will in the end just drain our lifeblood and the joy of life .
That, or simply the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Perhaps one day you could get tired of hunting every day to feed your family, tired of gathering food and spend the whole evening to just do the same the next day,...

But yeah, our society is not flawless at all. A shame we can't understand what living together really means and rather just go for our own interests always.

Quote:
..And maybe , but only maybe the bioluminescence adds a BIG plus to the feeling that Pandora created , it truely looks like paradise and fills you with pure joy , I can't tell exactly what it is but it just makes you wanna jump through the screen and start your own discovery adventure , and I'm pretty sure each of us would give pretty much everything for just a single day on Pandora , at least that's what I can tell for myself , though it's cruel to be shown the paradise of your dreams , but letting you know at the same time , that it's intangable or that it probably doesn't even exist .
Agreed there.
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Old 07-18-2010, 03:58 PM
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[QUOTE=ZenitYerkes;77852]

Quote:
That, or simply the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Perhaps one day you could get tired of hunting every day to feed your family, tired of gathering food and spend the whole evening to just do the same the next day,...
Oh I bet I wouldn't want to go back , because a world as presented in Pandora can give you alot more , it sharpens your senses , it makes you understand , it gives and supports you , unlike the world we live in which mostly takes ,numbs your senses and fills you with false hope and desires that will end up in a dead end .

I see both worlds , and I know which one I would choose over the other , simply because the society I'm living in disgusts me to a certain point and I just don't feel home here , it's a shame to see so many people selling their lifes to materialism and consumption and wasting our potential in exchange for artificialness .

Pandora is my personal paradise and of course I would have to learn alot about it before I can live there on my own , like someone said before , we are like babies even though we are captured in mature bodies , we have studied the wrong "books" and left the book of life besides that teaches the most if not everything , we rather studied the book of illusionism , false ideals and false hope .
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Old 07-18-2010, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep View Post
Oh I bet I wouldn't want to go back , because a world as presented in Pandora can give you alot more , it sharpens your senses , it makes you understand , it gives and supports you , unlike the world we live in which mostly takes ,numbs your senses and fills you with false hope and desires that will end up in a dead end .

I see both worlds , and I know which one I would choose over the other , simply because the society I'm living in disgusts me to a certain point and I just don't feel home here , it's a shame to see so many people selling their lifes to materialism and consumption and wasting our potential in exchange for artificialness .

Pandora is my personal paradise and of course I would have to learn alot about it before I can live there on my own , like someone said before , we are like babies even though we are captured in mature bodies , we have studied the wrong "books" and left the book of life besides that teaches the most if not everything , we rather studied the book of illusionism , false ideals and false hope .
I would also choose Pandora over Earth, but it is in fact nonexistant.

Yes, it might be beautiful, it might be challenging and it might be filling; but here on the land we put our feet on there is no such freedom, challenges are constant and way much aggressive and there is no Eywa.

Dreaming on Pandora itself is impractical, useless but for the heart. Being there is impossible.

Now what's left? A society, or rather a conglomerate of individuals; all concentrated in concrete blocks staying in front of screens forever, working in the city -but not always for the common good. A safe world if you don't question it.

Yes, it sucks, but it's what we've got left.

You have to choose: live in the sh*t or change the sh*t.

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Old 07-18-2010, 06:24 PM
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[QUOTE=ZenitYerkes;77863]

Quote:
I would also choose Pandora over Earth, but it is in fact nonexistant.
Knowing there is billions of stars, there has to be a planet at least similar to the one presented in Avatar , sure we might never get there probably , maybe we could get pictures with future-telescopes of new and far planets that have large areas of rain-forests etc. , even though it's intangable it is still a gift , living in a sh*thole but you still get to see a perfect world , even if it's "fictional" however you define fictional .


Quote:
Yes, it might be beautiful, it might be challenging and it might be filling; but here on the land we put our feet on there is no such freedom, challenges are constant and way much aggressive and there is no Eywa.
Like God here on earth , Eywa is a synonym for something we can't yet understand , if you could define a "God" or "Goddess" I'd say it's a endless combination of compounds that link everything together .


Quote:
Dreaming on Pandora itself is impractical, useless but for the heart. Being there is impossible.
Sure , but if we would stop dreaming , we wouldn't be as advanced as we are ,even if we do alot of things wrong we do have potential , it's just used for the wrong thing , and without the ability of dreaming of a better world we would be nothing but machines , and this wonderful movie would have never came to existence .

Quote:
Now what's left? A society, or rather a conglomerate of individuals; all concentrated in concrete blocks staying in front of screens forever, working in the city -but not always for the common good. A safe world if you don't question it.
Many might see it different ,but I consider us as only a shadow of what we once were or could be , we are now nothing but numbers in the masses , there seems to be no meaning in doing what we do day by day , it's the problem that there is no meaning in this society , in the way it works if you observe it closer .

Quote:
Yes, it sucks, but it's what we've got left.

You have to choose: live in the sh*t or change the sh*t.
I doubt we can neither nor of what you wrote , we can't live with it because it's wrong and we know it , but we also can't live anymore without it because the machinery is too seductive to our senses , life has simply become to easy , at least we created a artificial bubble called "civilization" which grants us to do it , scale life down to meaningless things which are portrayed as meaningful , desirable but they really aren't .

We are scared of the truth , that's why we are hiding out in our concrete blocks , it'S pure fear that has been served to us by ourselves , we don't even know where we are coming from anymore , we prefer artificial surroundings to our natural habitat , I don'T want us to jump around again in the woods or something , but you just have to see that we are concentrating large numbers in concrete blocks that look like fortresses against the rest of this planet , against nature , it's like we wanted to shield ourselves off from something , but what fuels our hearts with such fear ?
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:10 PM
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What I mean with the whole Pandora is fictional thing is that it does not exist. Sure, the possibility may exist but it's not actually a matter of where but rather of when. Time is even larger than space; infinite, or at least, existent as long as there is movement, energy and matter. But this is not a physics discussion, damn it.

Quote:
Sure , but if we would stop dreaming , we wouldn't be as advanced as we are ,even if we do alot of things wrong we do have potential , it's just used for the wrong thing , and without the ability of dreaming of a better world we would be nothing but machines , and this wonderful movie would have never came to existence .
Ah, yeah: never dreaming makes us slaves of reality, always dreaming makes us madmen. You can keep your head flying high but always remember the land where you put your feet on.

Dreaming of Pandora is useless by itself. This is what I meant; if you want to turn that dream into a reachable goal, like turning back to more natural and tribal lifestyles; then it's completely admissible.

Quote:
I doubt we can neither nor of what you wrote , we can't live with it because it's wrong and we know it , but we also can't live anymore without it because the machinery is too seductive to our senses , life has simply become to easy , at least we created a artificial bubble called "civilization" which grants us to do it , scale life down to meaningless things which are portrayed as meaningful , desirable but they really aren't .

We are scared of the truth , that's why we are hiding out in our concrete blocks , it's pure fear that has been served to us by ourselves , we don't even know where we are coming from anymore , we prefer artificial surroundings to our natural habitat , I don't want us to jump around again in the woods or something , but you just have to see that we are concentrating large numbers in concrete blocks that look like fortresses against the rest of this planet , against nature , it's like we wanted to shield ourselves off from something , but what fuels our hearts with such fear ?
First, please, don't use the collective "we" when you can use a "some people" or an "I"; not everyone thinks or acts the way you describe. It's just rules of good debating.

Second, it's not you don't live neither change it. You eventually do one of those, either consciously or unconsciously. EG, now you're living in the sh*t. You're buying their products, using their lamps, their laptops, and their music. Another thing is whether you like it or not, but the fact is that you are right now living in the sh*t. If you don't like it to the point of unbearability, you'd better work for the change.

And third, what makes us feel fear? I feel it's not mainly fear -though it does have its own role here- but rather comfort: would you give away your heating system in winter and your hi-fi set for living in the woods?

I bet not. If I'm wrong, and you really felt you don't want any of this, you would be living like a Native American in this exact moment. Why don't you do it? Because here it's comfier, and you can't lose anything here.

Or at least, that is what you've been taught to think.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:03 PM
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First, please, don't use the collective "we" when you can use a "some people" or an "I"; not everyone thinks or acts the way you describe. It's just rules of good debating.
This would be greatly appreciated. I personally, am not scared of the truth. I do not fear the truth, I do not fear death. I fear *dying*. I fear drowning, but I do not fear death itself. I know that I will die, if I'm honest, probably not of old age.

I know that I'm being fed food and water like a baby, through use of these little metallic tokens we call 'coins', and for the record, I do not fear the knowledge of it.

Fear tactics have been used for thousands of years to keep people in control. As the saying goes; "If you can get to a persons emotional-centre, and convince them that what you're saying is truth; you've got 'em."

But, yeah. Basic rules of debate, and for the sake of prevention of flame-wars.

Keep all the assumptions at an 'I' or 'some people' level please.
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
If I'm wrong, and you really felt you don't want any of this, you would be living like a Native American in this exact moment. Why don't you do it? Because here it's comfier, and you can't lose anything here.

Or at least, that is what you've been taught to think.
It's also safer. Honestly I would probable choose to live on Earth over living on Pandora, because on Pandora it seems to be a survival of the fittest. I would probable be killed off before I reached adult hood. I like to feel safe. I don't want to have to worry about If I'll have food to eat tomorrow.
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Old 07-18-2010, 11:53 PM
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I agree with a lot that has been mentioned in this thread. Indeed, one of the biggest draws to Pandora is the excitement/existential aspects of living there. There, you actually need to physically do things to survive and thrive. Here, everything is pre-packaged and refined, and all you need to do to get things is hand a shiny coin or piece of paper to the merchant behind the counter, or slip it into a machine. Sure, living inside a concrete and steel, climate-controlled block, and looking at a screen all day might be comfier (and safer), but when do you ever see the direct fruits of your labor? Plus, with this way of life, you consume and work your life away. On Earth, most of each day is spent doing a job or going to school, which leads to so much unnecessary stress, frustration, and complication. On Pandora, on the other hand, most of each day is spent outside, free, hunting, fishing, communing with others, riding Pa'li, or flying on Ikran. We can do that here, just replace Pa'li with horse, and Ikran with hang glider, but the thing is, we don't. Why not?

And I do not fear giving up safety for the sake of freedom and excitement, as I too would give it all up for Pandora if given the chance. I value nothing more than I do my freedom. It is something I am willing to suffer or die for if I had to, and I think the fact that a lot of people are not willing to sacrifice for their freedom is a reason we are in the s***hole we are in. Nobody's going to protect your freedom for you, you have to fight for it yourself

And I'm kind of going through that "what do we do now?" thing, now. I've seen something better, something I would be willing to give up everything for, and it's made my current way of life seen miserable (nearing unbearable), but at the same time, modern humans have been made biologically inferior (read "Manthropology," it's a real eye opener), and I don't know if I could physically handle living the way our ancestors/the Na'vi lived/live. And it seems we are just getting progressively weaker with each generation (case in point, overparenting and fear of germs) So indeed, what do we do know...?

And yes, the bioluminesence has a large part to do with it, too, even symbolically. See, we're always taught that the world is a dark, cold, cruel place, and the dark nights of Earth, contrasting with the naturally lit nights of Pandora help push the image home that Pandora is inherently a light, warm, loving place, while Earth has been rendered, as previously mentioned, dark, cold, and cruel.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:15 AM
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That's something... But for me, it really isn't the main part of why I know I should be there. It's more the Na'vi themselves, the beauty of everything, particularly the bioluminesence... and even things like the Hometrees, and being able to fly on an Ikran.
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:43 AM
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That's something... But for me, it really isn't the main part of why I know I should be there. It's more the Na'vi themselves, the beauty of everything, particularly the bioluminesence... and even things like the Hometrees, and being able to fly on an Ikran.
That, too. I mean, I can replicate (to a degree) some things from Pandora on Earth, such as a treehouse as a Hometree, or a hang glider for an Ikran, but there's no way to replicate the Na'vi themselves. I still find myself physically attracted to them, and would give anything to be one, even on Earth. Everything...skin...tail...queue...nose...ears.... ..

Thank god for biotech.
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Old 07-19-2010, 08:01 AM
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Exactly... The attraction for me is not just physical though (although it certainly is physical ), but also just how they See...
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