Proof Of God In An Email? - Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Go Back   Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum » General Forums » Debate

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-24-2010, 08:26 PM
Dreaming Of Pandora's Avatar
Dreaming Of Pandora Nostalgia++
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,381
Default Proof Of God In An Email?

Around a year or two ago I came across some guy who claims that he can prove the existence of God (or higher form of being) in one email (or several, I can't remember. I only have one of his). I put this in the debate thread NOT to debate religion, but to debate the possibilites of this email being correct or not.

Here it is:

See this email I just sent you, that you're reading
right now? This email is proof of the existence of God.

Yeah, I know, that sounds crazy. But I'm not asking you
to believe anything just yet, until you see the evidence for
yourself. All I ask is that you refrain from disbelieving
while I show you my proof. It only takes a minute to convey,
but it speaks to one of the most important questions of all

So how is this email proof of the existence of God?:

This email you're reading contains letters, words and
sentences. It contains a message that means something.
As long as you can read English, you can understand what
I'm saying.

You can do all kinds of things with this email. You
can read it on your computer screen. You can print it out on
your printer. You can read it out loud to a friend who's in
the same room as you are. You can call your friend and read it
to her over the telephone. You can save it as a Microsoft
WORD document. You can forward it to someone via email, or you
can post it on a website.

Regardless of how you copy it or where you send it,
the information remains the same. My email contains a message.
It contains information in the form of language. The message
is independent of the medium it is sent in.

Messages are not matter, even though they can be carried
by matter (like printing this email on a piece of paper).

Messages are not energy even though they can be carried
by energy (like the sound of my voice.)

Messages are immaterial. Information is itself a unique
kind of entity. It can be stored and transmitted and copied
in many forms, but the meaning still stays the same.

Messages can be in English, French or Chinese.
Or Morse Code. Or mating calls of birds. Or the Internet.
Or radio or television. Or computer programs or architect
blueprints or stone carvings. Every cell in your body
contains a message encoded in DNA, representing a complete
plan for you.

OK, so what does this have to do with God?

It's very simple. Messages, languages, and coded
information ONLY come from a mind. A mind that
agrees on an alphabet and a meaning of words and
sentences. A mind that expresses both desire and

Whether I use the simplest possible explanation,
such as the one I'm giving you here, or if we analyze
language with advanced mathematics and engineering
communication theory, we can say this with total

"Messages, languages and coded information never,
ever come from anything else besides a mind.
No one has ever produced a single example of a message
that did not come from a mind."

Nature can create fascinating patterns - snowflakes,
sand dunes, crystals, stalagmites and stalactites. Tornados
and turbulence and cloud formations.

But non-living things cannot create language. They
*cannot* create codes. Rocks cannot think and they
cannot talk. And they cannot create information.

It is believed by some that life on planet earth arose
accidentally from the "primordial soup," the early ocean which
produced enzymes and eventually RNA, DNA, and primitive cells.

But there is still a problem with this theory: It fails to
answer the question, 'Where did the information come from?'

DNA is not merely a molecule. Nor is it simply a "pattern."
Yes, it contains chemicals and proteins, but those chemicals
are arranged to form an intricate language, in the exact same way
that English and Chinese and HTML are languages.

DNA has a four-letter alphabet, and structures very similar
to words, sentences and paragraphs. With very precise
instructions and systems that check for errors and correct them.

To the person who says that life arose naturally,
you need only ask: "Where did the information come from?
Show me just ONE example of a language that didn't come
from a mind."

As simple as this question is, I've personally presented it
in public presentations and Internet discussion forums for
more than four years. I've addressed more than 100,000 people,
including hostile, skeptical audiences who insist that
life arose without the assistance of God.

But to a person, none of them have ever been able to
explain where the information came from. This riddle is
"So simple any child can understand; so complex, no atheist
can solve."

Matter and energy have to come from somewhere. Everyone
can agree on that. But information has to come from somewhere,

Information is separate entity, fully on par with matter and
energy. And information can only come from a mind. If books
and poems and TV shows come from human intelligence, then all
living things inevitably came from a superintelligence.

Every word you hear, every sentence you speak, every
dog that barks, every song you sing, every email you read,
every packet of information that zings across the Internet,
is proof of the existence of God. Because information
and language always originate in a mind.

In the beginning were words and language.

In the Beginning was Information.

When we consider the mystery of life - where it came from
and how this miracle is possible - do we not at the same time
ask the question where it is going, and what its purpose is?

Respectfully Submitted,

Perry Marshall
As usual, I'll stay neutral (but with an opinion, I just won't share it).
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 08:36 PM
Eltu's Avatar
Eltu is home.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 2,420

"If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't."

- Lyall Watson
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 08:37 PM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,751

I'm going to ignore the obvious flamebaiting to say this:
Has nature ever produced an encoded language? no. Have humans ever produced something natural that is infinitely more complex, patterned yet unordered, such as DNA? No.

Information is produced by a conscious mind - the brain (not just human, but other animals) is excellent at patters - recognising and creating. Of course a non-living object can not create something in the same way, because it does not act.

You're ignoring the much greater incidence of DNA and DNA-like structures that did NOT produce a stable form in favour of the one that did.

Language proves nothing either way, just as humans are nothing more than animals, albeit intelligent ones.
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 08:44 PM
Raiden's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,072

Oh crap not again.....

**hides away in secret bomb shelter**
Modern technology owes ecology an apology.

Trouble keeps me running faster

Save the planet from disaster...
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 09:10 PM
Advent's Avatar
Mother Falcon
Advent is feeling bittersweet
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Somewhere home
Posts: 2,972

Ah great. Another one.

(joins Raiden in his bomb shelter)
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 09:43 PM
Mika's Avatar
Mika Finally got her dream job. Full Time Librarian! :")
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 727

First time I have ever seen this 'email' ~ it is an interesting way to try and prove the concept! Realistically its not 'really' new, its just a 'twist' on ancient philosophy, removed from a religious presentation.
It was impossible not to have, It's impossible not to be, It's impossible not to still ...!

What this world really needs is more artists and environmentalists!

"Its only 'here' that we lose perspective, out at the Cosmic Consciousness Level things get a lot clearer. For example, there is an actual star pattern that is traced in the shape of a Willow Tree, across the breadth of the Milky Way! And no wonder Indigenous peoples refer to the 'here after' as the Happy Hunting Grounds! Has it ever occured to anyone why the bioluminescence dots, on the Na'vi!"
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 10:13 PM
stdout's Avatar
King of Output Streams
stdout .
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 247

Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 10:46 PM
Dreaming Of Pandora's Avatar
Dreaming Of Pandora Nostalgia++
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,381

Wow haha I think it was a bad idea to post this, my apologies. I've been living under a cabbage leaf when in comes to the debate thread.
Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2010, 11:12 PM
redpaintednavi has no status.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 471

If you have a self replicating physical pattern like DNA, RNA or some simpler precursor and then some variation caused by mutation or similar, you will as time goes by get more and more variative and also more complex structures that continues in their self replication. After x number of generations and after mutations have given rise to variation, and natual selection have worked its way on this variation, you will come up with a system that seems so complex that it could be interpreted as some kind of language. Still this language is just a result of natural laws, or functions, not by the will of some God or other supernatural entity.
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 12:56 AM
caveman's Avatar
caveman dreams...
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Heart
Posts: 646

Not really into debating this one. But I do find it interesting for this reason: I always associated evolution with the body, not the mind. Which is odd, the mind controls the body. Without the mind, or something in place of it, evolution wouldn't take place.

Interesting....Very interesting...
Stay thirsty my friends...
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 03:47 AM
Woodsprite's Avatar
Woodsprite is very busy.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 3,172


*strains to contain hidden hulk*
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 04:19 AM
Isard's Avatar
Old Guard
Isard -- Wait, you do hear the voices right?
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,416
Send a message via Skype™ to Isard

Da big one in the sky has left no clues for us in nature or elsewhere besides all the meddling "back in the day". Its a "you beleive it or you don't" thing. He wont prove his own existence because if he did, we'd demand he fix our problems. We're beyond our childhood where he had to spoon-feed us and interfere directly, we're on the brink of creating life on our own. We're maturing. Just like he wants. (Or she, or it, whatever you consider)
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 04:23 AM
Tsyal Makto's Avatar
Tsyal Makto glad to be home!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Body - Chicago, Spirit - Pandora
Posts: 1,873

Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post

*strains to contain hidden hulk*
Being esoteric is slowly killing you inside, isn't it?

The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 05:11 AM
Woodsprite's Avatar
Woodsprite is very busy.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 3,172

I'm like a nun who can't have sex, concerning these discussions.

Did I just write that?
Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 05:35 AM
Sonoran Na'vi's Avatar
Pa'li Makto
Sonoran Na'vi is impatient to continue onto grad school.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 299

The problem with this email is that the author erroneously associates DNA as a message/language. What may be confused as language is the information contained in DNA, where information is the observable data associated with a particular system. Just because something contains information is no reason to assign additional meaning to this information. Not to mention that the author gives us no definition of "information."

Anyway, people looking for arguments for God are better of researching the works of people like William Lane Craig or Alvin Plantinga.
"I would rather be a could-be if I cannot be an are,
Because a could-be is a maybe that is reaching for a star.
I would rather be a has-been than a might-have-been, by far,
For a might-have-been has never been, but a has was once an are".
-Milton Berle

Last edited by Sonoran Na'vi; 10-25-2010 at 05:38 AM.
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Visit our partner sites:

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:32 PM.

Based on the Planet Earth theme by Themes by Design

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
All images and clips of Avatar are the exclusive property of 20th Century Fox.