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ZenitYerkes 11-10-2010 08:00 PM

For a Godless Science
TL;DR - Religious people will kill me :P

When I've spoken to some of you who have a strong faith in God, I have felt dumb when I talked since the competitor in my theories was no less than an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God, Creator of the world. Specially when discussing the Darwinian theory of evolution, the answer "God made it, it's hard to believe that animals can change at all" is too tempting to ignore it and go for another, more complex and difficult to understand answer; since there is actually few completely certain data.

Also, morals are a touchy issue that somehow always pops up when talking to you. I've seen comments to the Evolution theory (just to keep going with the example) saying "I'm sorry, but I'd rather believe the Church. They take care of widows and orphans", or "Evolution theory says the needed should die. It's horrible, I'm not going to believe in that."

I'm not saying anyone here does it (actually this is the last place where I am expecting that kind of replies), but it's not just once that I've heard something similar.

Any case, I beg you people to keep God away from non-religious discussions for it harms more than helps.


God made it.

For the people who turn up with the "God made it" answer, I ask them to keep that for when there is actually no more reasoning to do and anything left is blurry, unknowledgeable and speculation land. Then yes, please -God came up and made it.

A theory should be coherent with the data available and with the natural laws and mechanisms that work now and have ruled the world -it always follows logical cause-consequence schemes.

But if you take out the natural cause of it and replace it with God -who, for being omnipotent, could have perfectly made it-, theories drastically change -and not exactly for the better.

Let's take the hypothesis "The world started to be since 5 minutes ago". Logical reasoning will tell you for personal experience: that happening is quite unprobable since it'd need all the people to have false memories until 5 minutes ago; and no possible cause making that happen turns it impossible. However, considering God there could make it actually happen, since we can't know why he did it -but he does, and that's enough.

There are people of all kinds and though quite very much improbable, I bet someone would support that hypothesis by saying that God made it happen.

"That example is stupid, and we are more intelligent than that Zenit". I know it's not the best example, but I'm just pointing out the absurd of replacing something that still can be explained naturally, logically with the God cause.

Tho, the more distant we get in time, the less track we have of the past and less proofs we have to support our theories. Evolution or Big Bang theories support themselves on sheer logic and a few facts, like the Doppler effect or fossils. Creationism supports itself on the Bible and the existence of God -since it needs no further base or alteration of the present proofs, it fits perfectly.

Which is right? I go for scientific theories since they do follow logical schemes and can explain more things without getting into unknown land; they explain why anything in the Universe happens.

Religious theories on the other hand are not as accurate, and most of them replace the natural cause with the God cause, to fill those gaps where science can only bring yet-to-be-proved speculations and almost proofless hypothesis.

However, I can't make these people change their minds with a long post. But I ask them to at least consider the other theories in spite of them being right or wrong, what I leave to their own judgment.

That's plainly wrong, I won't believe that.

Feeling anything is right or wrong doesn't change it. Disasters cause thousands of deaths, are we going to ignore them for it? No, what's more -exactly because they are tragic we will get prepared to face them.

For example, evolution theory has the great pro of explaining natural processes of selection -and those processes exist independently of anyone's opinion (or isn't the small fish eaten by the big fish?). Any case, religion appears in the scene and some people say "No, that's not what the Bible says"...

Whether you take the Bible as your reference, or follow what the Pope asks the Catholic Church to do: you should look for stronger reasons to follow their advice, specially when contradictory messages appear.

If all the foundations you have for "Condoms are plainly wrong" is that your pastor said so -that's ad baculum, authority fallacy; and I could retort that the archbishop told me it's better to prevent AIDS.

Both are based on strong authorities -but what makes one better than another it's not who said it, but rather what making that does, which the results are. To put it another way, it's better to let the argument "defend itself" for what it is and what it makes; rather than making it look right or wrong depending on who said it, or how they said it, or...

I'm afraid this just made no sense.

Any case, I'm writing this with all the respect religion deserves; and I hope nobody gets offended for it. If it does, I'm sorry -it wasn't my intention.

Woodsprite 11-10-2010 10:39 PM

I'll stay out of this one...

...especially considering how I'm not Catholic.

ZenitYerkes 11-10-2010 10:47 PM


Originally Posted by Woodsprite (Post 109706)
I'll stay out of this one...

...especially considering how I'm not Catholic.

So what does Catholicism have to do with this?

Just curious.

Woodsprite 11-11-2010 12:08 AM


Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes (Post 109707)
So what does Catholicism have to do with this?

Nothing, really. Just that small mention of following the Pope might be further exemplified, and I'm not too thrilled with getting into a discussion about "science vs. religion" when certain religious aspects are brought up that I don't agree with in the first place.

(For the record, I don't think science and religion are at odds with each other at all; only religion vs. macro-evolution, and that's just in certain cases.)

Eltu 11-11-2010 12:13 AM


Originally Posted by Woodsprite
For the record, I don't think science and religion are at odds with each other at all

If only more people could realize this.

Banefull 11-11-2010 03:59 AM

I believe in evolution. I also believe in God.

I want you to answer these questions with yes or no (anyone else is free to also).

Does life have meaning?
Does nature have meaning?
Does the universe have meaning?

Isard 11-11-2010 05:15 AM


Originally Posted by Banefull (Post 109743)
I believe in evolution. I also believe in God.

I'm Catholic, and I approve of this message.

Woodsprite 11-11-2010 05:18 AM

You're not Catholic. :rolleyes:

If you were just joking, I fail.

Isard 11-11-2010 05:27 AM


Originally Posted by Woodsprite (Post 109759)
You're not Catholic. :rolleyes:

If you were just joking, I fail.

Born and raised buddy.

Woodsprite 11-11-2010 06:36 AM

Born and raised maybe, but certainly not Catholic. ;)

Isard 11-11-2010 07:52 AM

If I say I'm Catholic, I, am, Catholic.

Woodsprite 11-11-2010 08:33 AM

If you're a true Catholic that believes the Bible and prays to Jesus (or Mary), then I'm Cary Grant back from the dead.

Isard 11-11-2010 08:37 AM

Hello Cary. Glad you enjoy belittling my faith.

Neytiri. 11-11-2010 10:13 AM

I may not be a part of any religion, or hold any background in this sort of topic but I do have a various set of opinions and beliefs based upon my experiences through out life. I would like to believe in a god, In a after life, and in all reality do not have to proof that those do not exist. I'm not saying I do or do not believe in god, at certain points through out my life I have found myself trying to talk to him, asking him questions, questioning the leaders and beliefs of today's "religion". If you grind down religion to its purest form it is a beautiful thing, it gives people something to believe in, it preaches good concepts, all in all it is a good thing. Once you add the factor of man skewing its original foundation it becomes something evil. I have nothing against god nor science, I believe that when you mix both you find true meaning. Everything I have learnt from both religion, however small it may be, and the vast amount of knowledge i have attained through science have greatly impacted my life, I have found new interests and through these interests it has shaped who I have become.

Only the ignorant believe that religion should stay out of sciences way and science should stay out of religions way when in reality they should embrace each other. Ignoring the obvious is ignorant but discrediting the unknown is equally as stupid.

I want to believe in a god, but do not believe the way in which man portrays him. An afterlife would be amazing but it is not a reason to give up upon life because "when you die everything will be perfect". Life is short, and life is rare, make use of what you can, Life has been bestowed upon you and whether it be from god or from natural evolution it does not matter. You have a short time on this earth why not make the best of it, Live your dreams, and achieve the impossible. Love is life.

and if this is TL;DR for you, then you have missed out because I wrote this not out of spite but out of compassion for the infinite opinions of those living around me.

Human No More 11-11-2010 01:54 PM

Very well said ZenitYerkes.

What annoys me most is when people feel he need to bring it into completely unrelated threads.

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