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  #1  
Old 11-15-2010, 11:21 PM
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For twisted minds and amateur politicians, a place where to write down a whole mindless and meaningless nothing in the fashion we hear from our dear representatives.

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I won't say "no". Not this time -and I think, never from now on. Those who say it are just cowards, and as we have seen in the past, they were just mistaken.

In fact, when were they right? We have seen them hesitate, is hesitating good from a leader? Or more from a bland hand what cannot lead this country? I assure you, my dear people, that such things will happen if we say no this time.

I believe in the people, I believe in this country! I believe that not me, for I am only a piece of this giant machine called democracy and of which we are all part of; I believe that not me but all of us are going to win the battle against a covered dictatorship, a restrictive and wandering government!

I believe in freedom, not tyranny!

Think of a greater country when you think of us! Think of a better place where everyone can have all the opportunities they need to make of their lives what they want, where everyone has all their necessities provided, where all of us are better people in a better place!

And for those who think we are mistaken, that we won't make it -tell to each of them, it's them who are mistaken and who are not going to make it! We can carry out the idea of a safer, healthier world without those parasites!

We will make it! And this is not a promise, it's a fact!
*applause*

I didn't know where to place this... but I thought the Debate section just suited
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Last edited by ZenitYerkes; 11-15-2010 at 11:24 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2010, 12:39 AM
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Probably the biggest lie of all, from left, right, center, up, and down - "I'll bring honesty to DC." Yep, you can just smell the bull**** coming off that one.

DC will never be a place of integrity as long as it stays a playground for lobbyists and special interests. As long as there's money in politics, there will never be honesty in government.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 11-16-2010 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 11-16-2010, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
DC will never be a place of integrity as long as it stays a playground for lobbyists and special interests. As long as there's money in politics, there will never be honesty in government.
Agreed. The only way anything gets done in government anymore it seems is when there is money to be made. Its not always for the greater good, just for the greater bank account.
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Old 11-16-2010, 08:05 AM
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I've kind of shifted my political views a little bit. I might write my manifesto up over the next few years but we'll see.

Basically I see a world where government is only a policing body and the private sector is soley responsible for the advancement of humanity. A government would still be necessary to ensure that ethics are upheld.

This is my utopia, a world where democracy won't force men and woman to lie their way to power.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2010, 09:21 PM
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by The Illusive Man View Post
Basically I see a world where government is only a policing body and the private sector is soley responsible for the advancement of humanity. A government would still be necessary to ensure that ethics are upheld.
Which would be the ideal. However, the problem is that government isn't upholding ethics anymore, because it's so damn corrupted. Any efforts toward regulations, reforms, or environmental standards are nonexistent anymore, because of so much corporate pressure against them, either through media propoganda, unlimited money being spent on elections (Citizens United Case) by corporate groups, or lobbyists cutting checks for politicians already in office. The voice of the people is a moot point now, because it has been drowned out by so much special interest money. Now does that sound like democracy to you?

We already have seperation of church and state, now we need to work towards seperation of business and state. We must work toward getting corporate money, special interests groups, and lobbyists out of government, so that it can act as unbiased policing body which responds to the true will (no, not the will the TV tells you to have, the will of your own damn brain) of the people.





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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 11-16-2010 at 10:02 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2010, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Which would be the ideal. However, the problem is that government isn't upholding ethics anymore, because it's so damn corrupted. Any efforts toward regulations, reforms, or environmental standards are nonexistent anymore, because of so much corporate pressure against them, either through media propoganda, unlimited money being spent on elections (Citizens United Case) by corporate groups, or lobbyists cutting checks for politicians already in office. The voice of the people is a moot point now, because it has been drowned out by so much special interest money. Now does that sound like democracy to you?

We already have seperation of church and state, now we need to work towards seperation of business and state. We must work toward getting corporate money, special interests groups, and lobbyists out of government, so that it can act as unbiased policing body which responds to the true will (no, not the will the TV tells you to have, the will of your own damn brain) of the people.
You're dead right there is no true democracy anymore.

Lets see if we can't change that.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
seperation of business and state
I could not agree more on this. When it comes to lobbying, the degree to which it has taken over the system is appalling.

In a world containing over six billion people surely there are those who would lead properly. Those who are motivated by concerns only to serve. The problem comes in how to find them. How should we go about appointing leaders.

For most of human history, it was Monarchs with leadership appointed by birth but its a mixed bag of extremes. You can have that wonderful king whom all the peasants love but quite often also, you get the evil tyrant who chops off heads.

What we have now is a system that encourages politicians to compete with each other in election with the hope that the best will make it by vote. The only problem is that it has become not the best but those who can raise money and advertise more, put on a big smiling face and sign bills for the whims of special interest groups. We try take human greed and naturally bend it towards common interest but it doesn't always work.

So how do we go about picking the leaders? How do we fix democracy or what better system can replace it?

Could we perhaps try and make the job of a politician the most unappealing in the world so that only those who genuinely wanted to serve would ever dare try?

Last edited by Banefull; 11-17-2010 at 05:53 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:23 AM
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I cannot confirm or deny that my esteemed opponent consumes small children at night while flossing his otter with money siphoned from medicare.
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:39 AM
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Monarchy? In a world of corporations?... *shudders*

With that said, I still think democracy - true, uncorupted democracy - is the best political system the world could have. At least in a democratic system people get to have a say in how their world is run, and get to change it if they are unapproving of it. In a monarchy, theocracy, or any other authoritarian system the people are forced to live with whatever policies that ruler (or in many cases, their handlers) has, and the only way to change the system then would be violent, bloody revolution. In a democratic system we have "bloodless coups" so to speak, through the ballot box. Let me reiterate again though that this is ideal democracy. We might as well be living in an authoritarian dictatorship because we're at the whim of special interests and corporations. Really a form of soft fascism.

I've thought about ways to reform the system, and I've pretty much come up with four steps that must be taken to purify and uncorupt democracy (framed in terms of the US):

1) Campaign finance reform - Get all corporate funding out of elections, whether it be directly or indirectly. Make would-be politicians run their campaigns on funds raised from the people (as in TANGIBLE, flesh and bone people, none of this "corporate-personhood" BS), and also set limitations to how much money an individual can donate. Make the politicians win people's votes not by how expensive/flashy their campaigns are, as it is now, but with their policies and rhetoric, as it should be.

2) Abolish senate - Senate is probably the most undemocratic institution imaginable. So much good legislation that had passed in the house only went on to die in the senate. With only 100 seats, and 60 votes necessary to pass legislation (not to mention another vote prior is necessary to simply vote on whether or not to vote on a piece of legislation...really?), it is incredibly easy for special interests to corrupt the entire legislative body, simply by buying a portion of the senate. I say we abolish the senate and integrate those seats into the house, then lobbyists would have to bribe hundreds of legislators, not a few dozen. If they want it that bad, them dammit make them risk going bankrupt to do it. To play it safe we could even bump the number of seats on top of this, to really make things lobby-proof. Plus then we could further reduce the size of voting districts, allowing smaller groups of people to have a more personal representative.

3) Ban lobbying - Pretty self explanatory, and (it would seem) common sense. Think about it, if a criminal gives money to a cop to look the other way, it's bribery. If a ball player or coach gives money to an umpire to call a play a certain way, it's bribery. But if a corporation gives money to a politician to vote their interests, it's...democracy?

4) Abolish the filibuster, secret hold, and other forms of obstructionism - Things like the filibuster and secret hold are extremely undemocratic. They allow individual legislators to obstruct the entire political process. We have checks and balances to prevent straight-up populism, and allow minority groups to have a voice, but when individual members (usually bought-and-paid-for) of said groups are capable of holding the entire system hostage, that goes way above and beyond simple checks and balances.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
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  #11  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banefull View Post
I could not agree more on this. When it comes to lobbying, the degree to which it has taken over the system is appalling.

In a world containing over six billion people surely there are those who would lead properly. Those who are motivated by concerns only to serve. The problem comes in how to find them. How should we go about appointing leaders.

For most of human history, it was Monarchs with leadership appointed by birth but its a mixed bag of extremes. You can have that wonderful king whom all the peasants love but quite often also, you get the evil tyrant who chops off heads.

What we have now is a system that encourages politicians to compete with each other in election with the hope that the best will make it by vote. The only problem is that it has become not the best but those who can raise money and advertise more, put on a big smiling face and sign bills for the whims of special interest groups. We try take human greed and naturally bend it towards common interest but it doesn't always work.

So how do we go about picking the leaders? How do we fix democracy or what better system can replace it?

Could we perhaps try and make the job of a politician the most unappealing in the world so that only those who genuinely wanted to serve would ever dare try?
We can get the best people into the leadership jobs by separating the private sector from government. That's something we can all agree on. Using this logic the word 'government' would actually mean something. They can be left to 'govern' and uphold ethics, laws and the bill of rights while the functionality of human progress and can be left to the private sector.

Edit: Good suggestions Tsyal Makto.
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Last edited by Spock; 11-17-2010 at 07:43 AM.
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Aihwa View Post
I cannot confirm or deny that my esteemed opponent consumes small children at night while flossing his otter with money siphoned from medicare.
"Medicare?! MEDICARE?!?!?! You keep yer big socialist, Marxist, Nazi, Kenyan gubmint hands off my Medicare!!!!11!11"
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Illusive Man View Post
We can get the best people into the leadership jobs by separating the private sector from government. That's something we can all agree on. Using this logic the word 'government' would actually mean something. They can be left to 'govern' and uphold ethics, laws and the bill of rights while the functionality of human progress and can be left to the private sector.
The only problem I see with this is, who will govern the government itself?

What is to keep the government continuously ethical? Some corruption will inevitably take hold despite being seperate from business.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banefull View Post
The only problem I see with this is, who will govern the government itself?

What is to keep the government continuously ethical? Some corruption will inevitably take hold despite being seperate from business.
We need to install some sort of circular logic in world politics where there is always a watchdog watching the watchdog. There's a few things you could do such as giving them no reason to be corrupt, but then you need a balance.

We definitely need to work on some inovative new ideas for global politics.
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  #15  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Banefull View Post
The only problem I see with this is, who will govern the government itself?

What is to keep the government continuously ethical? Some corruption will inevitably take hold despite being seperate from business.
The best people to govern the government are the same people that put them in office in the first place, the people. Thomas Jefferson's quote said it best, "People should not fear the government, government should fear the people." Those in government should be in constant fear of the hellfire that could come their way if they do not follow the will of the people that elected them. Unfortunately many of the democratic countries of the world have forgotten this. It's not just the US (though it is worst here, then probably followed by Britain) where people have given up their power by propagandic, sensationalist fear-media, and many times also force. For example, you'll notice that many of the same countries with corrupt democracy also have a very militarized police force.

One of the few countries where this really still exists anymore is France. Just take a look at the protests a few weeks ago. I remember a quote I saw in an article back during the peak of that event: "This is what democracy looks like when it hasn't been emasculated by decades of propaganda and consumerism."
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 11-18-2010 at 01:31 AM.
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