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Old 11-20-2010, 03:54 AM
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Default Multiculturalism is an 'utter failure'

To quote Robert D. Putnam:

"We hunker down. We act like turtles. The effect of diversity is worse than had been imagined. And it’s not just that we don’t trust people who are not like us. In diverse communities, we don’t trust people who do look like us."

I'm definately not a racist but I have come to accept the multiculturalism is a complete and utter shambles. I can tell you it has made no improvement on my country (New Zealand), but infact increased the racial tension that already existed due to our former bicultural demographics. Our multicultural model is not working. It's also sad that the indigenous New Zealanders (Maori) are going to lose their culture completely because of their complacency to face down this issue.

I promote a homogenous society with positive co-operation between 'countries', unfortunately this has gone on for too long and it's only going to get worse. This makes national identity worthless. I would like to return to my roots in Europe, and try to avoid the worst of it by building my biotechnology company there. So I ask:

Do you have the same concerns about the future?

Who's with me?
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Old 11-20-2010, 04:10 AM
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I understand what you mean.
Multiculturalism won't work because people have identities. People will want to destroy others, people will oppose the loss of their own identity. The real answer is to have distinct groups, countries, but with cooperation between them, but nobody wants to say that.
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Old 11-20-2010, 04:14 AM
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I understand what you mean.
Multiculturalism won't work because people have identities. People will want to destroy others, people will oppose the loss of their own identity. The real answer is to have distinct groups, countries, but with cooperation between them, but nobody wants to say that.
That's right, at least we can talk about it here but what government would listen to us?
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Old 11-20-2010, 04:56 AM
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Yeah, same thing here in the US. The whole "melting pot" concept was a very utopian ideal when it was on paper, but history has come to show that some cultures simply won't blend with other cultures.

I'm a neo-tribalist. A world which can progress technologically, but keep socially-tribal communities. People can form factions along cultural lines, and then create strong social bonds within said communities. Commerce, trade, and large projects (space programs, manufactoring, etc) can still occur in an impersonal manner through interaction between tribes, where cultural identity would not be an issue.

Though regardless of what social structures are enacted to deal with cultural friction, the thing the world must get over is xenophobia and supremacism. If the world is to find equalibrium at all people must be willing to accept another culture's equality and right to exist within it's own right. If not, inter-cultural conflict will just continue.
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Yeah, same thing here in the US. The whole "melting pot" concept was a very utopian ideal when it was on paper, but history has come to show that some cultures simply won't blend with other cultures.

I'm a neo-tribalist. A world which can progress technologically, but keep socially-tribal communities. People can form factions along cultural lines, and then create strong social bonds within said communities. Commerce, trade, and large projects (space programs, manufactoring, etc) can still occur in an impersonal manner through interaction between tribes, where cultural identity would not be an issue.

Though regardless of what social structures are enacted to deal with cultural friction, the thing the world must get over is xenophobia and supremacism. If the world is to find equalibrium at all people must be willing to accept another culture's equality and right to exist within it's own right. If not, inter-cultural conflict will just continue.
Spot on. I think the 'melting pot' theory is about 1000 years too early, we should co-operate on a global basis within our own cultures like you said until all cultures worldwide have advanced to point where poverty has been abolished and a new utopian state of ethics is in place. From here we can 'passively' allow people to breed a master race, built upon a utopia of morals, ethics, discovery, adventure and ambition.

It took thousands of years for humanity to spread around the globe, for humanity to develop into distinctly different races and cultures, it's going to take another couple of thousand to reverse all of that. It's as simple as that.
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:31 AM
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i like multiculturalism. you get to meet many different people.
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Old 11-20-2010, 05:09 PM
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Multiculturalism...

I'd say more, post-imperialism. In the UK people from all the old colonies are coming to England, and other English-speaking territories. Same for Spain, refuge for Moroccans and workplace for South Americans; or France,...

Multiculturalism would work if we had interest in working with people from all over the world or meeting other cultures in the first place.

But it ended up being something forced and with unexpected results.

Don't take me wrong, Humanity can live in harmony, we only need that we *want* to live in harmony with all it takes in the first place.
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Old 11-20-2010, 05:35 PM
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Don't take me wrong, Humanity can live in harmony, we only need that we *want* to live in harmony with all it takes in the first place.
Its not what we "want," its what we "should do." With multiculturalism, parties have to be willing to make concessions. When people are unwilling to make those concessions, bad things result. It hurts yes, but we have moral obligations. We should promote understanding of other cultures without surrendering our own identity.

Now don't get me wrong, quite too often we take it a bit too far when the dominant culture concedes too much; however, that does not mean it cannot work. Those who are part of the dominant culture have to balance their own needs with the needs of others.
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Old 11-20-2010, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Banefull View Post
Its not what we "want," its what we "should do." [...]

[...]It hurts yes, but we have moral obligations.[...]
Hence why it can only happen forced, and therefore, not work.

The friction is just huge.

PS: Also, what obligations? Why should we do it? Who dictates how the whole world should go on? And why should we do what he/she tells us and not what we want ourselves?
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Old 11-20-2010, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banefull View Post
Its not what we "want," its what we "should do." With multiculturalism, parties have to be willing to make concessions. When people are unwilling to make those concessions, bad things result. It hurts yes, but we have moral obligations. We should promote understanding of other cultures without surrendering our own identity.
Very well said Banefull . I think that has been part of the problem. In the name of "multi-culturalism" and "political correctness", we have surrendered our identities and in the end that doesn't help anybody. There should be a mutual understanding and cooperation of different cultures, people, etc but it should NEVER be forced and that is where it has been a failure.


I think that another problem is the increased globalization and to a degree technology. The modern, materialist culture seems to dominate everything to the point that traditional cultures, people, religions, etc have to adapt or else. Why should they have to adapt? This is one of the key fallacies I believe because these cultures have been around for thousands of years and they were able to adapt and still maintain their identities through that time. Sadly, as a result of the global, materialist culture that is constantly dominant, it seems that some people have given up on giving anything to actually hold on to to the next generation. This is true in Europe, N. America, S. America, Asia, Africa, etc. In a way it is a disease. Either you have groups of people who hate their culture/history/identity and don't do anything to boost it or you have people who want to cling to their culture/history/identity but they are pressured to assimilate or be left behind entirely.

The solution to this is multi-faceted and it is daunting but I believe it can be done but it must start with you and me. Take love in your identity/history/culture and love other cultures as well and help to not only preserve them in amber but to make sure they continue to grow. Obviously for most of us, we can't get off of the "globalization" train. Afterall, we use technology every day to keep in touch with others and many of us work in less than fulfilling jobs but that isn't what makes us what we are. Our identity should not be what our occupation is or how much money that we made or where we went to school. Those are the three major identity markers in our globalized society. Just go to any party, etc and introduce yourself to a new person. Chances are the conversation will inevitably go into the direction, "So, what do you do?" Humans are seen as nothing more than commodities to be bought and traded. Is this the sort of identity we want to pass on to future generations? That you are worth only what you can make or what your occupation is?

In many traditional cultures, this isn't what their identity is. Granted, there is still some sort of caste system or social structure but they each have their role to play in the society. They aren't just throw away commodities.

Due to this identity crisis in modern society, you have people who decide that they will identify themselves with the more fringe elements. This is also one reason why other cultures, etc have looked on the "West" with loathing and hunger because on the one hand we are decadent and our culture is spreading to every little part of the globe and on the other hand, some of these people want the monetary freedom, etc that has been a hallmark of Western society for a couple of decades now.

Its true that multi-culturalism is a failure and I believe one of the great questions that will continue to be debated as the 21st century moves on is what is our identity and whose identity is worthy to be cultivated. I believe we are coming to a point of a clash of civilizations and competing worldviews. It is happening now and will continue for a long time.
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Illusive Man View Post
To quote Robert D. Putnam:

"We hunker down. We act like turtles. The effect of diversity is worse than had been imagined. And it’s not just that we don’t trust people who are not like us. In diverse communities, we don’t trust people who do look like us."
Robert D. Putman has many critics and he is no wise sage with regards to how society should be, so I do not know why you place such value on his opinion. I and many others think his opinion is worthless.

Quote:
I'm definately not a racist but I have come to accept the multiculturalism is a complete and utter shambles.
My knowledge of the Modern world and of Human History tells me that most people who are against multiculturalism are also against Religion, and are also closet racists. You never find religious/spiritual people who think that multiculturalism is a failure.

Quote:
I can tell you it has made no improvement on my country (New Zealand), but infact increased the racial tension that already existed due to our former bicultural demographics. Our multicultural model is not working. It's also sad that the indigenous New Zealanders (Maori) are going to lose their culture completely because of their complacency to face down this issue.
Many people in your little country would disagree with you on every point. It is unclear what you mean my 'multicultural model'. From my understanding the Moaris were perfeclty happy until settlers arrived and tried to force the Moari culture into extinction, however the Moaris were able to fight their way to equality. New Zealand has relatively low crime rates compared to the rest of the world, as well as relatively high standard of living, and high levels of literacy and education, so I do not understand what you mean when you say the 'model' is not working. Ofcourse there are socio-economic variations, but that is the same for every country in the world.

Quote:
I promote a homogenous society with positive co-operation between 'countries',
You promote???? As if you have any power; Hiding behind your computer screen, ranting at a world which could not care less about your views.

Quote:
unfortunately this has gone on for too long and it's only going to get worse. This makes national identity worthless.
It makes National Identity worthless? No. It makes YOUR Idea of national identiy worthlless. Most of your fellow New Zealanders would think you were nuts. As a person who likes watching most sports, I enjoy seeing your Rugby team tearing apart the opposition, and in the line-up of this great team we see white New-Zealanders and Moaris side by side proudly singing the New Zealand anthem. This is how most people around the world, including myself see New-Zealand - a melting pot. Part of the reason your team is any good is because there are Moaris in it.

Quote:
I would like to return to my roots in Europe, and try to avoid the worst of it by building my biotechnology company there.
Don't kid yourself. There are Americans and other nationalities who have worked in Europe for years and have never fitted in or been accepted. Just because centuries ago, your parents may have lived in Europe that does not mean you have anything in common with Europeans, or that you would fit in or be accepted. Just speak to Americans and Brits working in countries like Germany, France and Italy. And the irony in all this, is that the people most reluctant to fully embrace you for who you are will be those who have the exact same mentality as you.

Quote:
Do you have the same concerns about the future?

Who's with me?d
Face it my friend, the only people who are with you and have the same concerns, will be generally the non-Religious and worldly types, like yourself.

The arguments you are trying to put forward remind me of the arguments people use to try and put an end to Religion. Your ideas are every bit as Hair-Brained as the Anti-Religion people.

Religion is not going anywhere and neither is Multiculturalism. To try and stop either of these two things is like trying to hold back an incoming tide using a bucket.

Last edited by Tiberius; 11-20-2010 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 11-20-2010, 07:40 PM
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^A needlessly insulting reply.
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Old 11-20-2010, 08:22 PM
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snip
Must every post be about religion?
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:39 PM
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My knowledge of the Modern world and of Human History tells me that most people who are against multiculturalism are also against Religion, and are also closet racists. You never find religious/spiritual people who think that multiculturalism is a failure.
Ah, but that's where you're wrong. I'm a Catholic, and I understand perfectly well that multiculturalism is failing.

Australia is one of the most multicultural countries in the world. And everywhere you look, you can see crime, racism, tension. In fact, if you don't believe me, you should have heard what was on the news yesterday.

A woman wearing a burqa was pulled over for a random breath test from a police officer. He asked if she could remove it to verify her identity, and she called him a rascist and that 'all cops are rascists'. Now, she's in court for providing 'false information' to the police.

Now I'm not a rascist, but things are getting out of hand here. Not to mention overpopulation...
I'm not saying multiculturalism is a bad idea. I'm just saying that right now, it isn't working.
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:47 PM
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You know, I debate best when people start to piss me off and insult me, if that's what you want then by all means continue, but beware; it's what got PunkMaister banned. Oh the humanity, let's get started.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
Robert D. Putman has many critics and he is no wise sage with regards to how society should be, so I do not know why you place such value on his opinion. I and many others think his opinion is worthless.
I put forward Robert D. Putman's views in order to represent my point of view, it has nothing to do with how much criticism he gets or how you view him. His quote merely represented my argument at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
My knowledge of the Modern world and of Human History tells me that most people who are against multiculturalism are also against Religion, and are also closet racists. You never find religious/spiritual people who think that multiculturalism is a failure.
Well I suppose we'll have to ask around then, I am technically religious but I have always had my beliefs on that back foot, mainly because I'm so focused on achieving my goals in life. I would be careful about your generalisation regarding racists, the leader of the New Zealand first part here in New Zealand is part native Maori and he is 100% against multiculturalism. As are many people of varying races in New Zealand.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
Many people in your little country would disagree with you on every point. It is unclear what you mean my 'multicultural model'. From my understanding the Moaris were perfeclty happy until settlers arrived and tried to force the Moari culture into extinction, however the Moaris were able to fight their way to equality. New Zealand has relatively low crime rates compared to the rest of the world, as well as relatively high standard of living, and high levels of literacy and education, so I do not understand what you mean when you say the 'model' is not working. Ofcourse there are socio-economic variations, but that is the same for every country in the world.
That equality has lasted, New Zealand had a seamless bicultural society for over 100 years, race relations were at their best. Until Helen Clark decided to turn us into a multicultural society, race relations are worsening, crime is on the rise, standards of living are dropping, literacy is also falling. Poor literacy is something I have witnessed firsthand, many of the students coming up into High School (I'm in my last year) are barely able to read or write. Maybe you don't know what it means, but that is a measure of your intelligence, not the facts I present.

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You promote???? As if you have any power; Hiding behind your computer screen, ranting at a world which could not care less about your views.
I'm sharing my opinion. Is there anything wrong with that? And believe me, if I ascend to a position of power then I'll be putting some weight behind this argument.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
It makes National Identity worthless? No. It makes YOUR Idea of national identiy worthlless. Most of your fellow New Zealanders would think you were nuts. As a person who likes watching most sports, I enjoy seeing your Rugby team tearing apart the opposition, and in the line-up of this great team we see white New-Zealanders and Moaris side by side proudly singing the New Zealand anthem. This is how most people around the world, including myself see New-Zealand - a melting pot. Part of the reason your team is any good is because there are Moaris in it.
Yeah, two ethnic groups of people who have gotten along very well for a long time. Alot of people endorse this view, a lot of people don't, it's as simple as that. Believe me, the rugby team analogy was a bad one.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
Don't kid yourself. There are Americans and other nationalities who have worked in Europe for years and have never fitted in or been accepted. Just because centuries ago, your parents may have lived in Europe that does not mean you have anything in common with Europeans, or that you would fit in or be accepted. Just speak to Americans and Brits working in countries like Germany, France and Italy. And the irony in all this, is that the people most reluctant to fully embrace you for who you are will be those who have the exact same mentality as you.
Well, lets see, my father was born in England for one and I have lived in England for a time. I think I would do just fine. Not to mention 95% of my family lives in England too. It would be wise to be close to family wouldn't you think. I'm not sure what you're point is?

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
Face it my friend, the only people who are with you and have the same concerns, will be generally the non-Religious and worldly types, like yourself.
Absolute preposterous comment with no evidence or weight whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
The arguments you are trying to put forward remind me of the arguments people use to try and put an end to Religion. Your ideas are every bit as Hair-Brained as the Anti-Religion people.
Except these are realist arguments.

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
Religion is not going anywhere and neither is Multiculturalism. To try and stop either of these two things is like trying to hold back an incoming tide using a bucket.
Oh, this is where you are right for once. It's a sad world isn't it? The cultural tension is going to send humanity back to the stone age, I love humanity and I can't let that happen. What's sad is that people like you won't realise it until the very last minute.

You are a poor debater in the finest sense of the word. It was a pleasure, I hope we can continue this.

Edit: You're also a **** speller. Work on it. I gave the same advice to PunkMaister on a regular basis.
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Last edited by Spock; 11-21-2010 at 12:21 AM.
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