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  #16  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Advent View Post
This planet could easily hold 20 billion people with certain technology and circumstances. We can gain energy from far better, cleaner sources, but we don't. We don't need many of these products made, but they're made and sold anyway.

Not to be all activist, but I think we need better, smarter leaders in charge of our species. To moderate all this.


Hive worlds in WH40k would be a good theoretical example.
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2012, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Advent View Post
This planet could easily hold 20 billion people with certain technology and circumstances. We can gain energy from far better, cleaner sources, but we don't. We don't need many of these products made, but they're made and sold anyway.

Not to be all activist, but I think we need better, smarter leaders in charge of our species. To moderate all this.
Even if we could, do we really want to have 20 billion people on this planet? What of Dunbar's number?
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Even if we could, do we really want to have 20 billion people on this planet? What of Dunbar's number?
We probably wouldn't. But that's an easily achievable capacity, and we're struggling with less then 7 billion. It's disappointing that we don't seem to have the mind to organize our rabble.

Of course, less then 5 billion would be marvelous, but you can't choose everything.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:15 AM
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we WILL PREVAIL!!!
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  #20  
Old 02-23-2012, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Even if we could, do we really want to have 20 billion people on this planet? What of Dunbar's number?
That's limited to people an individual personally knows - 7bn is also > ~150 - there is nobody who could ever know every single person anyway, unless they were a posthuman with vastly improved memory/processing/communication/parallelism capabilities.

Other than that though, you're right - while current levels are sustainable with improvement, if humans want to leave as much of Earth unchanged, they have to hold population at current levels in order for development to catch up.
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  #21  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:10 AM
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Obviously I didn't mean it like that. Interactions with others becomes more and more impersonal as the amount of people someone interacts with increases, and the population density levels needed to sustain 20 billion people in urban environments would generally make it harder to find true acquaintanceship like that described in Dunbar's number. Apparently the average number of extra-familial friends people have (Americans, at least) is declining (a record number say they have no friends). Whether that is related to a record level of urbanization, or coincidence, I'm not sure, but my theory is that it is the former.

And if anything, negative population growth should be our ultimate goal. Keeping it level is good, but we can do better.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

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"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 02-23-2012 at 03:15 AM.
  #22  
Old 02-23-2012, 05:13 AM
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I don't understand this connection you're making between Dunbar's number and a large population. Just because there are more people in the world does not mean we'd have to interact with more people in our daily lives, only that we'd be aware of more people.
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  #23  
Old 02-23-2012, 08:29 AM
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It would lead to more dense urban populations, so yes, people would indeed be interacting with more people. And even if the result isn't denser populations in current urban areas, but the creation of new urban areas, that will still result in the psychosocial challenges that urban living has.

But that really wasn't the point of my post, either. Just one point toward a larger theme: negative population growth. Instead of trying to put two pounds of bologna in a one pound bag by trying to stretch our abilities to keep reproducing, why not rather work toward not reproducing, reducing our population, so to reduce our strain on resources and the environment, while also allowing people to live wherever they wish (because wanting to sustain a high population WOULD require mass urbanization), with smaller, closer communities.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 02-23-2012 at 08:42 AM.
  #24  
Old 02-23-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Advent View Post
Of course, less then 5 billion would be marvelous, but you can't choose everything.
No, but you CAN choose to NOT MAKE BABIES
  #25  
Old 02-23-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
But that really wasn't the point of my post, either. Just one point toward a larger theme: negative population growth. Instead of trying to put two pounds of bologna in a one pound bag by trying to stretch our abilities to keep reproducing, why not rather work toward not reproducing, reducing our population, so to reduce our strain on resources and the environment, while also allowing people to live wherever they wish (because wanting to sustain a high population WOULD require mass urbanization), with smaller, closer communities.
You essentially have to rule the world to enforce that, and that doesn't get around the fact that denser cities are wealthier by all the metrics that "matter."
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  #26  
Old 02-23-2012, 06:54 PM
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DEFINE "WEALTH", Clarke, I think that you are trying to be argumentative. You call the "city" depicted in the opening scenes of the collector's edition as a "wealthy" place? I define it as HELL ON EARTH.
It is the Na'vi on Pandora, that are wealthy beyond ANY Earthly measure. I believe that it is VERY safe to bet that you have NEVER spent an extended time away from a city, or a suburbs, so you have ZERO experience base to draw from.
After you have lived in a highly tribal Society on a Pacific island, (Samoa, NOT Hawai'i), for several YEARS, learned to speak the language, and experience the lifestyle of the people, THEN see if you call RATS NESTS "Wealthy".
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  #27  
Old 02-23-2012, 08:15 PM
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1. (obsolete) Weal; welfare; prosperity; good; well-being; happiness; joy.
2. Riches; valuable material possessions.
3. A great amount; an abundance or plenty.
----She brings a wealth of knowledge to the project.
4. Power, of the kind associated with a great deal of money.

Don't make assumptions like that either - most people here have even if that is perhaps rarer in the US - again, unlike some places, even dense populations here often have a diversity of areas including areas of untouched land right near cities. It is possible, just doesn't happen everywhere.
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  #28  
Old 02-23-2012, 08:46 PM
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While I am not sure that you were referring to my post that preceded yours HNM, it is likely, so I will answer.
I grew up for several years in the New York City greater metropolitan area in the late fifties, and early sixties, where death due to being mugged was almost the same as "death due to natural causes". I have seen the filth, crime, drug addiction, squalor, and homelessnes ( way BEFORE the latest recession), of New York, Tampa Florida, Philadelphia Pennsylvania, Los Angeles California, Seoul Korea, and we won't even discuss the cities of Southeast Asia.
For the two years that I lived in Samoa, I never once read of, heard of, or saw a TV report of a single mugging, I never saw a drug addict, never saw a homeless person, or even someone that had missed a meal. EVERY TIME a new boatload of rich palagi came for their two day stop in PagoPago, I had to listen to their comments of the "Poor backward natives in their shacks" that lived on the islands. The reason that we lived in the Fale's without complete walls and doors, was we didn't have to worry about huge electric bills to cool our houses, we just let the trade winds blow through our houses,
leaving them without the locked doors, knowing that when we came back home, NOTHING would be missing.
To me, THAT is FAR more "Civilized" than what happens in the cities. Even in El Paso, the crime rate is something totally alien to a Pacific island tribal member.
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2012, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
No, but you CAN choose to NOT MAKE BABIES
I can. The rest of the world... well, good luck telling them.
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  #30  
Old 02-24-2012, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
DEFINE "WEALTH", Clarke,
Art, science, creation, innovation, philosophy to a lesser extent. That sort of thing. Most people say monetary profit, but that seems to flow out of either material processing, or innovation of some sort or another. (And innovation makes material processing more profitable.)

Quote:
You call the "city" depicted in the opening scenes of the collector's edition as a "wealthy" place? I define it as HELL ON EARTH.
Well of course you would; JC designed it specifically to invoke that reaction. Do not take it as an example of the future.

Quote:
It is the Na'vi on Pandora, that are wealthy beyond ANY Earthly measure.
You mean knowledge of yourself, of the world and of nature isn't "wealth"? The Na'vi have no equivalent of the Pale Blue Dot.

Quote:
I believe that it is VERY safe to bet that you have NEVER spent an extended time away from a city, or a suburbs, so you have ZERO experience base to draw from.
You'd be wrong. Here is an issue I've seen away from cities: I don't want to spend more time than strictly necessary actually maintaining my life; I want to use my time to get on with stuff that's important to me, whether that's my job or my hobbies or whatever, so I can actually progress towards what I want. I don't want to spend hours and hours every day fulfilling basic needs, when I could instead spend those hours doing cooler things.

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Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
I grew up for several years in the New York City greater metropolitan area in the late fifties, and early sixties...
You mean when the country had just spent vast resources fighting WWII? Of course quality of life in any poor country goes down, even one which is relatively poor. Have you checked about QoL in richer times and places?

Quote:
For the two years that I lived in Samoa, I never once read of, heard of, or saw a TV report of a single mugging, I never saw a drug addict, never saw a homeless person, or even someone that had missed a meal.
Apart from the fact that there's less people to begin with, so of course you won't, here's a thought: how many different types of meals do you have available?

Quote:
The reason that we lived in the Fale's without complete walls and doors, was we didn't have to worry about huge electric bills to cool our houses, we just let the trade winds blow through our houses,
leaving them without the locked doors, knowing that when we came back home, NOTHING would be missing.
Of course; this is almost entirely because there's less people who do not have the finances to support themselves. However, what "support themselves" means is surprisingly complicated.

Quote:
To me, THAT is FAR more "Civilized" than what happens in the cities. Even in El Paso, the crime rate is something totally alien to a Pacific island tribal member.
Niri Te
How about Geneva? It is 1/3rd the size of El Paso, and has 1/35th the crime rate. And also happens to be bigger than the entire nation of Samoa. If you're basing your view on Texas, of all places, no wonder you believe cities inherently have massive crime rates. Just because El Paso is bad doesn't mean anything about cities; it just means the US Government can't handle cities.
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