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  #31  
Old 02-24-2012, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
While I am not sure that you were referring to my post that preceded yours HNM, it is likely, so I will answer.
I grew up for several years in the New York City greater metropolitan area in the late fifties, and early sixties, where death due to being mugged was almost the same as "death due to natural causes". I have seen the filth, crime, drug addiction, squalor, and homelessnes ( way BEFORE the latest recession), of New York, Tampa Florida, Philadelphia Pennsylvania, Los Angeles California, Seoul Korea, and we won't even discuss the cities of Southeast Asia.
If you think the rest of the world is like New York etc. then there's your problem. It's not - many cities here, including the one I live in, are comparatively safe and would be considered extremely safe in many countries - obviously, you still have to use common sense, but it isn't actively dangerous. I honestly doubt that anywhere is completely safe, especially in terms of leaving valuables in the open - while they may not be interested in things equivalent to their own, that would change if it was something desirable, and that pattern will be seen in any society that isn't a post-scarcity one.

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Originally Posted by Advent View Post
I can. The rest of the world... well, good luck telling them.
Exactly
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  #32  
Old 02-24-2012, 02:30 AM
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New York and those others are literally some of the largest cities and don't make up very much of the world.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:37 AM
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.................................................. ..........................
Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
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A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.

The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.

This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.

Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity

One group is trying to save Forests......The second group is trying to save Rivers......The third group is trying to save Oceans......The fourth group is trying to make the Air clean......The fifth group is trying to save Tigers and Elephants......The sixth group is trying to save Whales and Dolphins.

Industrial Technology has destroyed environment........Industrial Society is trying to save environment by changing the Technology.

Bring this Technology, Bring that Technology........Bring this Technology, Bring that Technology.

Height of Insanity and Abnormality......This is like trying to save a victim of shooting not by stopping the shooting but by changing the gun.

People who are trying to save environment in Industrial Society without stopping all Industrial Activity deserve the Nobel Prize for Lunacy.

Why don't people realize the futility and absurdity of their efforts......It is impossible to save animals, trees, air, water and land without stopping all Industrial Activity.

What is the point in saving a few Dogs, Cats, Whales, Tigers and Elephants when Industrial Society is killing billions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of Wild Animals in Forests by destroying Forests with Industrial Activities like Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks and ever expanding Towns and Cities.......Industrial Society is also killing billions of fish in the oceans with Industrial Fishing and through discharge of billions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans which has made them poisonous, acidic, warmer and created oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans.

It is impossible to save Air, water and Land without stopping all Industrial Activity because Industrial Activity is killing them with trillions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.......Industrial Activity produces trillions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Waste and there are only three places on earth where all this waste can go....Air, water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where this waste can go...... It is impossible for Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere and Soil to be clean in Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society......Not an Industrial Society.

All Environmentalism is Pseudo-Environmentalism in Industrial Society.......It is impossible to save environment in an Industrial Society.

People who pretend they are saving environment in Industrial Society are even more insane, abnormal and criminal than people who are destroying the environment.

It is impossible to save environment in Industrial Society because Industrialization itself is the cause of environmental destruction.........In a non-industrial society environmentalism was not even needed.......In the absence of Industrial Activity environment got saved automatically because only limited destruction of environment was possible without Industrial Machines.
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Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ..

Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.

Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.

Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.

Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.

The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.
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What is the Result of 50 years of Environmentalism/ Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society???

Industrial Society has been killing millions of times more Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land than Pre-Industrial Society every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing millions of acres of Forests with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing Billions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing millions of Wild Animals by destroying the Forests where they live with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing Air, Water and Soil with billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste every day for several decades.....Industrial Society has been killing Rivers, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere and Soil/ Land with Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing Millions of Acres of Fertile Soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day for several decades.

All this Killing / Destruction was absent in Pre-Industrial Society without any Environmentalism.
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All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.

How can environment ever be saved in Industrial Society when Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction....Environment can only be saved in a Non-Industrial Society.

Industrial Society has created hundreds of unnecessary / futile occupations to solve the problems created by Industrialization.....Environmental Activism is one of them.....If thousands of organizations and millions of activists are trying to save environment in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved…..There have been three human societies on earth .....Hunter_Gatherer, Agrarian and Industrial.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society there was no Urban Population, entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society less than 2% of population was Urban, Most of the population was engaged in producing food.....In Industrial Society 50% of world population is producing food for entire population , the remaining 50% population is Urban which has created hundreds of unnecessary occupations to keep itself occupied..... People would go crazy without work…. Environmentalism / Environmental Activism is one such profession [occupation]......[Other unnecessary and destructive professions in Industrial Society include Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Jobs in Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and several other jobs]....No Environmentalism was needed in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Societies because in the absence of Industrial Activity only limited destruction of environment was possible, so environment got saved automatically.

If billions of pages of environmental discussion is taking place in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved......Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.....Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion.....They didn't even have a language for discussion…..Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.
  #34  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:38 AM
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The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are consequences / by-products of Industrialization.

Without Industrialization there would be no overpopulation and no overconsumerism.

Industrialization, Overpopulation and Overconsumerism happen together.......Industrialization, Overpopulation and Overconsumerism happen at the same time.

It is Industrialization that has led to a population of 7 billion.....Not overbreeding.

The entire world was overbreeding before Industrialization.....The entire world is underbreeding after Industrialization.

There used to be 5 - 15 children per family all over the world before Industrialization and yet world population reached only 1 billion till 1800 AD......After Industrialization the family size reduced drastically, most families are now having 1 - 4 children and yet world population jumped from 1 billion to 7 billion in just about 200 years.

If Industrialization had not happened world population would be less than 2 billion today.

India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions.....What was the population of Europe and America 2000 years ago????.....Was it comparable with the population of India and China???? .....And once again, In the absence of Industrialization India and China would not be having large populations today.

If Industrialization had not happened, High death rate would have kept population of the world under control....Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.....Feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control....Shortage of food and water would have kept population under control.....Harsh Climatic Conditions would have kept population under control - People would not have been able to live in regions that are too hot or too cold.

If Industrialization had not happened this planet would have been in very good condition today.....There would be no overpopulation, no overconsumerism and only limited urbanization.

A Non-Industrial Society would have destroyed some ecosystems on the land [Forests] but Marine Ecology [Oceans] would have been almost 100% safe today......Forest Cover would be much greater than what it is now....Millions of species on the land and in the sea would not have been decimated and would be thriving with very healthy populations......This planet would be free of Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The Oceans wouldn't have become Acidic, Warmer and Oxygen Deprived because of Industrial Waste.

It is consumerism that destroys environment, Not population.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food......not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.......not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

[By the way, A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion......An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion]

Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk about population we should take into account population of all animal species on earth, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species.... The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species......There was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....The combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

This planet can only sustain a Non-Industrial Society.

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If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment, Villagers will survive forever.

If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

[ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]

Urban Population is engaged in Unnecessary Work, Meaningless Work, Futile Work and Destructive Work which has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.

For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.

There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".
  #35  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:39 AM
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Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.

The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.

This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.

This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.

Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".

It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes…..They all destroy environment......All Industrial Activity must be stopped.

Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.

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This planet cannot sustain an Industrial / Urban Society......The problem is not Capitalism, The problem is Industrialization / Urbanization.......The solution is not Communism or Socialism, The solution is Non-Industrial / Non-Urban Society.

Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter at all........What matters is percentage of Urban Population......A Socialist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population...... A Communist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population.

Urban Population is responsible for consumerism.......Urban Population does not produce Food.....It produces thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.

Consumerism is directly proportional to Percentage of Urban Population.

Saving environment in Industrial Society is an impossibility......No Industrial Society can save environment.......Communist or Socialist Industrial Societies cannot be less destructive than Capitalist Industrial Societies.

There cannot be any sustainable Industrial Society........The fault does not lie in Capitalism.....The fault lies in Industrialization.....All Industrial Societies are the same.....All Industrial Societies are equally harmful, destructive and evil.

Destruction of environment is guaranteed in Industrial Society......The debate over Capitalism, Communism and Socialism in the context of Environmental Crisis is meaningless and absurd.

Industrialization , Urbanization and Consumerism go hand in hand......They happen together.

Today 50% of world population is Urban, living in cities...... 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population living in Cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services........Urban population is not producing food, it is producing consumer goods and services.......Even if the entire world is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to bring about any change in consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population will remain the same and it will continue producing and marketing thousands of consumer goods and services.

In America 90 - 95% of population is Urban......That is why consumerism is so rampant in the US......Even if America is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to reduce consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population would still remain the same.

In Europe 80 - 90% of population is Urban.

In China and India consumerism has risen exponentially with the increase in percentage of Urban Population.

Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter.......What matters is Industrialization and Urbanization which results in Consumerism.

This planet cannot sustain Industrial Urban Population.......This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

This planet can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" / producing food......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.

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Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
  #36  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:24 AM
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You say all this now but I doubt you'd enjoy living in a cave and eating animal ****.
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  #37  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iron_jones
You say all this now but I doubt you'd enjoy living in a cave and eating animal ****.
Fail. There is a whole lot of middle ground. It is not a choice of destroy the world or eat ****.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:06 AM
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Reading this thread again reminds me of a special news programe on the Great Barrier Reef and the challenges that it faces in order to still be around in 40yrs time.

Ocean Acidification
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  #39  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:14 PM
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Dear sushil_yadav, I really feel with you on all these issues and agree to a lot of what you say. some of the metaphors or comparisons you use are very interesting in terms of how to phrase describing the issue.

I especially liked the comparison involving the shooter running around in a city and killing people and the citizens and police just trying to save the people being killed without stopping the shooter. I would even go further in that comparison and say that modern neoliberal thinking even pushes the idea that it is the victims fault if they are shot - After all, if they would just get out of the way and not provoke the shooter or try to hold on to their homes, its their own fault if the shooter comes that way and wants that home or their posessions. Oh and of course if that person gives his posessions to the shooter out of fear of being shot, that victim is also to blame for supporting the shooter, so lets imprison that person. This is what happens with people who seriously want change. They get told that it is not industrial civilizations fault that the world is destroyed but that they themselves are to blame personally because they support industrial civilization simply by traing to get the most basic needs - food, shelter, water, warmth. Most people within industrial civ can only get these things if they take a job, earn money and buy food in a supermarket and oil for their heating. They are not given a choice really. And then if they dont use the newest most expensive light bulbs, fancy electric cars and buy organic food (because they cannot afford any of this), they are of course even more blamed of participating and supporting industrial civ. I think this is in some ways backwards. If I am not given the chance to live sustainably, am I the victim or the perpetrator?

An example - I am trying to heat part of the home I live in with wood. There is a garden outside and at times I have to cut some branches that are growing over the house or over the street nearby, so I want to use that wood and cook with it and heat a room with it. To get that done, I need hundreds of Euros. Why? Because I cannot just take the old wood stove from grandma, punch a hole in the chimney and attach it. No, it has to be a certified and approved modern woodstove with a classification that costs several hundreds of Euros. Then I have to have it delivered to my home, I need to find a professional who attaches it to the chimney and then another professional will check the certificate and approve of the installation for more money. He will then also inspect if the wood I want to burn is of the right kind and hopefully approve of it, at which point I can finally start recycling the leftover wood from the garden for cooking. For the same amount of money, I can buy roughly 30 bottles of propane which would allow me to cook food for about 10 years. To earn the money I had to participate in the job economy for several days or weeks. So whatever I do - in a twisted mind I will appear as a perpetrator.
Another example would be to try and get out of this altogether - what does one need? A LOT of money to buy some property elsewhere (or even more money to buy it locally), just to get the permission to use that land for sustenance. And then I still will face land tax, building regulations and that whole issue about the wood stove again.
There is no guilt-free way out of this, so I agree to your argument that in the end, industrialism will have to go away, otherwise no one living will be able to live sustainable anymore because everyone is forced into participating in it.

There is a famous old quote on this by Adorno. "Es gibt kein richtiges Leben im falschen" - "One cannot live proper (righteous) in the wrong [context]"

Population growth certainly is a problem, but there are two problems with regarding population growth as THE problem. One is that population growth is a RESULT of technological development and the resulting degradation of the landscape, not the cause (if more food is produced and more room is given to people, there will be more people). And in the end it is not population that is the problem anyways, but it is consumption. The same area can support more people that consume less but less people that consume more. I postulate that the world could - without the use of fossil fuels - support actually LESS people with fully industrialized lifestyles than it could support hunter gatherers or subsistence farmers. It is really simple actually - if the Earth provides a certain amount of what is defined in modern times as "resources" or "ecosystem services", the product of population and consumption cannot be larger than that. Hence an increase in consumption would actually have to reflect in a reduction of population to be sustainable. Lets say there were 100 million people living as subsistence farmers on the planet some thousands of years ago - the invention of technologies that consume more would only have been possible in a sustainable way with a reduction of population to maybe 10 or 1 million people globally. Instead there was a population explosion. The only way this is possible at all is by displacing other living beings - nonhumans. and by burning fossil fuels, thus consuming resources at a rate that is faster than they are provided by Earth. This is called overshoot and its the name of the game we are playing right now. Displacement of others allows an increase in consumption of course because humans then take what was meant to be for the bears and lions and antelopes and buffalo and appropriate it.

As the OP wrote - the actual total population of the world (counting humans and nonhumans) has not really increased, it has decreased rapidly because a human living in industrial civilization consumes far more than any nonhuman he has replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
You essentially have to rule the world to enforce that, and that doesn't get around the fact that denser cities are wealthier by all the metrics that "matter."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
1. (obsolete) Weal; welfare; prosperity; good; well-being; happiness; joy.
2. Riches; valuable material possessions.
3. A great amount; an abundance or plenty.
----She brings a wealth of knowledge to the project.
4. Power, of the kind associated with a great deal of money.
I think most people living in industrial nations have adopted #2 and #4 as the predominant definitions, because certainly wealth of happiness, joy, wisdom, community or leisure time are not exactly the properties of a city in which people work for 8 days in small grey boxes, get into boxes with wheels to get to more grey boxes just to stare into cream colored little boxes that show colorful images or written text while swallowing an ever increasing amount of antidepressants, stimulants, recreational drugs etc...

But one word of warning, sushil_yadav - I see you are new to this forum and let me tell you, that I made the arguments you are presenting - or similar ones at least - many times before in pages upon pages of posts. I did research, cited scientific papers, economists, ecologists, scientists and philosophers. But some people cannot be convinced by anything. They stop thinking logically (which is what they are so proud of) when it comes to the problems of technology, society, capitalism and the environment and instead turn emotional or even towards some unfounded faith in technology as the solution to everything. There is nothing that can convince them. It is worse than talking to a fundamental christian about a topic that challenges the existence of God or Jesus. Because accepting an argument as valid that challenges any of these beliefs would open a crack and threaten the whole dreamed up reality, the whole illusion of progress and a goal in life they are working for. No one wants to have his goals in life, his ideology, his dreams and his feeling of purpose in this world taken away from him - especially not if one is convinced that there is nothing outside the material world or nothing outside the human society and civilization. Because in that worldview, loosing technology, computer games, TV, celebrities, science and electric light is basically a huge loss because it is not emotionally counterweighted by an improved relationship with the more than human world. For these people, there is no more than human world that is really worth much more than a nice landscape for a photo - and thus these people are enclosed in their little grey boxes and are mourning everything that disappears from inside that box - not realizing that in turn something much more valuable was given in exchange. But that something is given to them outside the box. And they refuse to get out of it - or are not even aware that they are inside a box.

Greetings to India.
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  #40  
Old 10-08-2012, 04:11 PM
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The examples that you give, ma auroraglacialis, are one of the biggest reasons, that while a lot of the things and that the "Hippies" made popular during the sixties to early seventies died out, their dream of "Back to the land" movement has continued, at a very slow, but steady pace. There are a large number (numerically, not as a percentage of the national population, which is miniscule), that are leaving what we, as a group out here call the "rats Nest Cities", and putting their meager savings down on "Contracts for Deed" for undeveloped land out in the sticks. About ninety percent of these people are incurable dreamers, who have done NO research on what it takes to live in the area of the Country that they are trying to live in, and wind up going back to a city, usually close to pennyless, to then live on Government assistance till they can find another minimum wage job. But for the eight or ten percent of us, most of whom are either retired, or on Veteran's Benefits, and can live in an area where there are zero jobs available, while they build their own homes, dig their own wells, and set up their own, at first meager power systems.
Those of us that stick it out, wind up, several years later, with a piece of land they OWN, (the land of that type is very cheap, and can be paid off in five or six years), and live in a house that is paid for, as they paid for the materials as they built the house. Then it is a small step to have a dozen Chickens, and a couple of dairy Goats , as well as a Garden, and they are TOTALLY self Sufficient for the rest of their lives.
Out here where I live, very close to 100 percent of the forty families that have moved out in the outlying areas of the little town of 225 are just that type of people. We don't worry about a job, have NO utility costs, grow our own food, and have our own REALLY tight community.
I realize that this type of lifestyle without any Government interference, is probably impossible in most of Europe, but it is the reason, that while I DO miss the Gemutlichkeit of the Bavarian people, I am very happy HERE.
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  #41  
Old 12-04-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auroraglacialis View Post
But some people cannot be convinced by anything. They stop thinking logically (which is what they are so proud of) when it comes to the problems of technology, society, capitalism and the environment and instead turn emotional or even towards some unfounded faith in technology as the solution to everything.
auroraglacialis,

I want to thank you for your detailed post in which you have explained many things and for your deep concern for environment.

You are right about Techno-Worshippers who keep saying Technology will save environment.

Industrial Technology is the cause of environmental destruction.....Overexploitation of nature became possible only because of Industrial Technology.....Without Industrial Technology and Machines only limited destruction of nature was possible.

Trying to save environment with Technology is like trying to extinguish a fire with petrol.

Trying to save environment by changing Industrial Technology is like trying to save a victim of shooting not by stopping the shooting but by changing the Gun.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Last edited by sushil_yadav; 12-04-2012 at 06:22 AM.
  #42  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:51 PM
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I just finished reading a book called "TechNOfix" - I dont recommend it to everyone, as it is in part quite technical and has well over 1000 endnotes and also the conclusion is a bit bland, but the author analyzes very well what is going on and specifically why as long as the society does not change, no technology can save the world, because no matter what technology is created, it will not be used to do more good than harm, because society uses technology in a certain way that is coherent with the values of that society - in case of industrial society especially with capitalism or so-called "communism" that value is growth and improvement of the material wealth of humans. Instead of using higher efficiency light bulbs to actually save energy, people use more light, instead of using more efficient engines to save gasoline people buy larger cars or drive more because they can afford it. But more importantly, technology is not value neutral - so it is not about technology being that neutral tool that can always be used for good or evil - thats a gross oversimplification and in fact the values and norms of a society, the investor and the developer of a technology - they all are reflected within that technology. For example TV - certainly it can be used to broadcast good stuff or bad stuff, educational programs or American Idol. But in any case, it promotes people sitting in front of a screen, basically isolated even if they sit there with other people they still stare at the screen and are passively entertained or educated. That is a value embedded in that technology - it is about unidirectional transfer of information to a passive individualized/isolated audience. As such it promotes passive consumption and "taking orders" (for example "buy this laundry detergent" or "this is how lions live like in Africa"). This is embedded because of the origins of TV, which sprung from the strongly inequal societies of the beginning of the 20th century - capitalist industrial societies mostly. It was immediately utilized to promote commerce or political ideology.
So technology is not value neutral and it does not solve problems created by social or economic ideologies - I dont really see its role as that of a solution for these problems - society including economics and politics has to change fundamentally, otherwise it really is trying to extringish a fire with petrol because if the idea of people is that they want it warm and bright during the night and that is why they started that fire - they cannot use water because that would get rid of that warmth and light but using petrol means they can stop burning wood and instead keep that fire going with petrol but then of course they see that they can have it warmer and brighter with more petrol, so they put in more and more and looking from the outside this looks like insanity because they are simply burning more and more...
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  #43  
Old 12-07-2012, 02:46 AM
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All problems of Industrial Society are unsolvable because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.....Exponential increase in environmental destruction, incidence of cancer, obesity and war/ violence.......Industrialization is the cause of all these problems.

It is important to understand why millions of people are trying to solve all these problems when they can never be solved.

Here is the answer - Billions of people who are not producing food in Industrial Society have to be kept engaged in some work or activity....People would go crazy without work....Therefore unnecessary, meaningless, futile and destructive jobs and professions are created by Industrial Society to keep the Urban Population occupied.

In Hunter_Gatherer Society the entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in producing food [hardly 1 - 2% of population was not producing food].

In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for entire population.....The remaining 50% population is engaged in extra, destructive and unnecessary work....[In America only 5% of population is producing food, That is why America is the Mother of all unnecessary and destructive work in this world].

The population that does not produce food is engaged in Production and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and All kinds of unnecessary research.

Millions of people are doing unnecessary, meaningless and futile research in Industrial Society in hundreds of fields.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to save Environment which is not possible because Industrial Activity itself is the cause of large scale environmental destruction.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Obesity which is impossible because Obesity is a result of Industrialization.....A result of the switch over from physical work to mental work and easy availability of billions of tonnes of ready-made food.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are trying to cure Cancer which is not possible because Industrialization itself is the cause of cancer.....Industrial Activity has contaminated air, water and soil with billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous carcinogens.

Millions of people in Industrial Society are working with Peace Organizations trying to make the world peaceful.....This is an impossibility because Military Industrial Complex is promoting war and violence by producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world.

.
.

Hundreds of professions and millions of jobs have been created in the name of solving the problems of Industrial Society.

The solutions will of course never come because Industrialization itself is the cause of problems.

Millions of people are happy because they are getting jobs and salaries......Governments are happy because they can claim they are doing all they can to solve global problems.

Meanwhile the problems continue getting bigger and bigger day by day, moment by moment.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Last edited by sushil_yadav; 12-07-2012 at 02:48 AM.
  #44  
Old 12-11-2012, 12:56 AM
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Interestingly, things tend to increase exponentially as population does. I wonder why

Rate is completely different to incidence. For example, the USA has more murders than Honduras, the country with the highest rate (as do Russia, Brazil, China and India, for that matter), but fewer per capita. There's a difference.
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  #45  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:27 PM
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It's not Industrialization the cause, but our beloved human race and its obsession with control. The bad part is that you can't turn a blind eye to the light once it has been blinded for centuries and it continues to be. The good part is that things could be done.
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