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  #16  
Old 08-17-2011, 06:16 AM
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I think it's important to be proud of where we come from and the things that make us different. Though I don't think one has to constantly be telling others nor should one believe that they are better than another.
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2011, 06:40 AM
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I support Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish nationalism but that's as far as I go.
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Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)

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  #18  
Old 08-17-2011, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
I support Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish nationalism but that's as far as I go.
Clearly you have no idea of the British political situation then .

How would you feel if I said that I supported Sydney or Melbourne 'nationalism'? I'm fairly sure you'd say the same thing to me about Australia. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland ARE countries, they have their own parliaments. Britain or the British Isles are not a country any more than Australia and New Zealand are one.

Inform yourself of a situation before you take a side, making an uninformed comment like that really annoys me as someone who lives here.

I am proud to be British, but I don't feel that any such pride, by any country, should lead to wars or similar, but having no interest in where you are from for the sake of political correctness or a country's past performed by people who are long dead (rather than a genuine disagreement with the government, for example, such as in the middle east).
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  #19  
Old 08-18-2011, 03:18 AM
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  #20  
Old 08-18-2011, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Clearly you have no idea of the British political situation then .

How would you feel if I said that I supported Sydney or Melbourne 'nationalism'? I'm fairly sure you'd say the same thing to me about Australia. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland ARE countries, they have their own parliaments. Britain or the British Isles are not a country any more than Australia and New Zealand are one.

Inform yourself of a situation before you take a side, making an uninformed comment like that really annoys me as someone who lives here.

I am proud to be British, but I don't feel that any such pride, by any country, should lead to wars or similar, but having no interest in where you are from for the sake of political correctness or a country's past performed by people who are long dead (rather than a genuine disagreement with the government, for example, such as in the middle east).

How ignorant of you to assume that I have no idea of British politics because I mention that I support nationalism and are you basing my supposed ignorance since I am typing my response from Australia? >.< I always knew that Britain was made up of countries, I haven't been living under a rock. Last time I checked people from other countries have just as much of a right to talk about countries as do native born people.

When I mentioned Nationalism I meant on a sociological/cultural level which is concerned with a united identity of the people concerned or simply self determinism in regard to practice of culture and language. It doesn't have to always be concerned with politics.

I'm too frustrated and indeed tired to even try to counter your argument..
I'll just say this..my yearning for Nationalism has been from my Welsh father and his family..And not everyone in Britain wants to be affiliated with England under the umbrella of "Great Britain." I've looked at the Scottish census results, and I've seen the resurgence of movements like the IRA.
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The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly."
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"Try to see the forest through her eyes."

Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)

Last edited by Pa'li Makto; 08-18-2011 at 07:34 AM.
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  #21  
Old 08-18-2011, 04:24 AM
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Fantastic video tm20, I don't think anyone could say it better.
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  #22  
Old 08-18-2011, 07:09 AM
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I have to say that that video is interesting.
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My fanfic

"The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing.
The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly."
-Chronicle of the First Age


"Try to see the forest through her eyes."

Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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  #23  
Old 08-18-2011, 07:56 AM
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I really don't give a damn.

There are more important things to worry about and aspire to than what today's sorry excuses for world leaders care about.

I'm not an "American". I'm a human, if a highly reluctant and misanthropic one.

If I had the ability to do so, I'd make everybody in the world shut the hell up, solve each other's problems and play nice. I hate humanity because it can't do that itself, even as it hurtles towards it's own destruction.
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  #24  
Old 08-18-2011, 10:28 AM
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In a kind of a twist of irony, I generally don't think the idea of formalised 'countries' is a particularly grand idea, that we should be a lot more localised than that, and that single governments should not govern such a broad area as they do, if at all... However, I do feel a national pride in my country. I do not consider myself British, I always choose Welsh if I have the option on anything I fill out, I always will refuse to sing the 'British' national anthem, I feel a pride when I see the Dragon,but not the Union Jack and yet, I do not strictly know why, I just feel that these are my fellow countrymen, that even though we may have largely interspersed in modern times, i'm still proud to have a Celtic heritage and that - fundamentally - I do not feel a part of a 'British Isles' in terms of very much at all...

I would like to stress, however (and I think maybe this is where the communication breakdown happened between Pa'li and HNM) that I am NOT a member of a 'Nationalist party' such as the IRA, Plaid Cymru, SNP or EDL - for their respecive countries - as many of those people exhibit 'irrational patriotism' (to varying levels). I am more than happy for immigrants to come into our country, as long as they have something of value to offer to society, like most other citizens here. I will dismiss anyone who is clearly happy enough to take without giving back from society, be they Welsh, Irish, English, Scottish or any other nationality for that matter. It is alright to love your country, to cherish your identity as a person of a certain nation, but to then exhibit that pride in an extreme fashion, or by pushing it onto other people or by pushing *them* out of your own culture, even when they do not seek to destroy yours isn't fair behaviour.
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  #25  
Old 08-18-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan View Post
In a kind of a twist of irony, I generally don't think the idea of formalised 'countries' is a particularly grand idea, that we should be a lot more localised than that, and that single governments should not govern such a broad area as they do, if at all... However, I do feel a national pride in my country. I do not consider myself British, I always choose Welsh if I have the option on anything I fill out, I always will refuse to sing the 'British' national anthem, I feel a pride when I see the Dragon,but not the Union Jack and yet, I do not strictly know why, I just feel that these are my fellow countrymen, that even though we may have largely interspersed in modern times, i'm still proud to have a Celtic heritage and that - fundamentally - I do not feel a part of a 'British Isles' in terms of very much at all...

I would like to stress, however (and I think maybe this is where the communication breakdown happened between Pa'li and HNM) that I am NOT a member of a 'Nationalist party' such as the IRA, Plaid Cymru, SNP or EDL - for their respecive countries - as many of those people exhibit 'irrational patriotism' (to varying levels). I am more than happy for immigrants to come into our country, as long as they have something of value to offer to society, like most other citizens here. I will dismiss anyone who is clearly happy enough to take without giving back from society, be they Welsh, Irish, English, Scottish or any other nationality for that matter. It is alright to love your country, to cherish your identity as a person of a certain nation, but to then exhibit that pride in an extreme fashion, or by pushing it onto other people or by pushing *them* out of your own culture, even when they do not seek to destroy yours isn't fair behaviour.
I suppose I should of used the word self determinism more than I should of used nationalist. But thank you, thank you Fkeu by helping to prove to people like HNM that there are people out there who don't feel "british" and fall more into their own ethnic identity.
Though I am in Australia, I feel more Welsh than anything because it fills a hole that australian culture has lacked. I feel pride when I see the welsh dragon and I feel that the people of wales shouldn't feel yoked to be "British" especially when all my father's family and a lot of other welshmen and women don't like to be affiliated with England. My father especially mentioned his disgust for Margaret Thatcher who practically decimated the industry of Wales and Northern England to serve the interests of the people of southern england.

Basically I feel that Scotland, Ireland and Wales have been put into this concept of britain that superficially unites all the countries even though England is better off over all the countries, as it has been since the medieval days where they used Wales and Ireland to try to take Scotland.

Another example: If everything is fine and dandy then why was there protests and action when the Queen recently visited Northern Ireland in May?
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"The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing.
The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly."
-Chronicle of the First Age


"Try to see the forest through her eyes."

Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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  #26  
Old 08-18-2011, 11:34 AM
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Yes, I see what you're getting at...

But I don't feel the same sense of betrayal or iniquity that maybe you do... If the English *are* better off, than fine, that's great. That's their business to do with what they like, but I agree that all of the UK countries should not be lumped together and claimed as a 'single state', because it is simply not true.

To go back to what I was saying earlier about localisation, the Welsh have a very different set of issues to what maybe any of the other UK countries do. In fact, the problems that my town faces are more than likely very different to what people up in the Valleys or in major cities like Cardiff are suffering with, which is why I believe it is a mistake to try and apply blanket approaches to tackle all of the "UK's" problems, when that approach could - in the end - harvest more difficulties for people in other situations. Say, for example, that people in London are found to be claiming more benefits than they should be, because the living standard is so high in London... through a standardised system, they need to reduce *all* of the benefit payments across the board. However, the people in places where work is scarce or near-on non-existant actually *need* that much money to physically sustain themselves. If their benefits drop, they will struggle even more than they do already. So it ends with the person in the richer part of the country getting what they should, rightly... but the person in the poorer part getting less then they should.

This is part of the reason that Wales and Scotland have devolved from centrailised government, because basically, we have different issues to deal with. Wales is not England. Thus, we have different ideals, different issues, and also a different way of thinking.
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  #27  
Old 08-18-2011, 11:41 AM
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I see where you are coming from and I think I understand what you mean. Issues in one locality are different in others, which is why local government is normally pretty effective in dealing with the issues faced by their population. The same thing happens here because this country is so broad both ethnically and geographically. For example the local councils in the shire deal with different issues in the City.

*Sigh* I just get annoyed by imperialist ideas held by one country over others. I also support Hawaii and I hope that someday they can get their independence from America..Lots of the people are pretty unhappy there.
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"The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing.
The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly."
-Chronicle of the First Age


"Try to see the forest through her eyes."

Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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  #28  
Old 08-18-2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
which is why local government is normally pretty effective in dealing with the issues faced by their population.
Lol, you ever been to the UK?

But seriously...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto
*Sigh* I just get annoyed by imperialist ideas held by one country over others. I also support Hawaii and I hope that someday they can get their independence from America..Lots of the people are pretty unhappy there.
Yes, I agree with you there. The CCCP was a somewhat similar situation, there were many so different countries divided up within the Union that constituted so many different ideals, situations and cultures that were all branched under the same heading. Really, few people felt a part of the Union itself, instead lending their loyalty to the separate 'sections' they were attributed to. They felt Yugoslavian, Ukrainian, Armenian... They did not feel truly 'Soviet'... And while they had their own localised governments, they answered to the Premier, and in the end, this cultural/social divide helped it's downfall. Another example actually lies within the Unification of Germany. for the unification to be sicessful, it took the 'manufacturing' of a social background and a heritage to bring the people together. Without that, they still felt loyal to their independant regions.

So basically, until all states, countries, counties etc. feel they are all alike in terms of cultural stance and 'flag colour', then they will never feel united - and to label them as so would be foolish.
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  #29  
Old 08-18-2011, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
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Lol, you ever been to the UK?
Nope I was actually speaking about the local councils (gov) that we have here. I thought that came across pretty clear in my post. They deal with issues for their localities better then what the state gov can.
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My fanfic

"The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing.
The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly."
-Chronicle of the First Age


"Try to see the forest through her eyes."

Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)

Last edited by Pa'li Makto; 08-18-2011 at 12:58 PM.
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  #30  
Old 08-18-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
How ignorant of you to assume that I have no idea of British politics because I mention that I support nationalism and are you basing my supposed ignorance since I am typing my response from Australia? >.< I always knew that Britain was made up of countries, I haven't been living under a rock. Last time I checked people from other countries have just as much of a right to talk about countries as do native born people.
I wasn't basing it on your location , I was using an analogy which if I had honestly said, I am fairly certain you would have stated that I did not know the situation there.

Quote:
When I mentioned Nationalism I meant on a sociological/cultural level which is concerned with a united identity of the people concerned or simply self determinism in regard to practice of culture and language. It doesn't have to always be concerned with politics.
Both of which exist, but neither of which have anything to do with nationalism.

The IRA are terrorists and so is anyone who supports them, particularly since Northern Ireland has consistently wished to remain part of the United Kingdom and the people who suffer through their actions are ordinary people, while Ireland's financial collapse is only exacerbating that. The situation is more complicated in Scotland, but a lot of people there seem to forget that the vast majority of their funding comes from Westminster - as the situation currently is, Scotland with no ties to Britain would be completely inviable.

If you had simply said that you were interested in their unique cultural elements, language, etc. , I would have understood, but equating that with nationalism is not the same thing at all.

Saying 'England is better off' is completely unrelated to the reasons why - that not only is there a far larger population, but there has been much larger development of the economy and investment. There were protests much as there are anywhere - because some of the aforementioned people who oppose Northern Ireland's right to exist nonetheless live there. As it was, the protest were both small and ineffectual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan View Post
But I don't feel the same sense of betrayal or iniquity that maybe you do... If the English *are* better off, than fine, that's great. That's their business to do with what they like, but I agree that all of the UK countries should not be lumped together and claimed as a 'single state', because it is simply not true.
Nobody ever said they were except for the very first post, which appeared to falsely imply it, hence my reply.

Quote:
To go back to what I was saying earlier about localisation, the Welsh have a very different set of issues to what maybe any of the other UK countries do. In fact, the problems that my town faces are more than likely very different to what people up in the Valleys or in major cities like Cardiff are suffering with, which is why I believe it is a mistake to try and apply blanket approaches to tackle all of the "UK's" problems, when that approach could - in the end - harvest more difficulties for people in other situations.
That is exactly why there are local parliaments and even entities like city/town councils within countries...

I can understand people being proud of whichever part they are from - I am proud to be both British and English, but all four nations owe a LOT of their success to the United Kingdom, particularly when the smaller ones receive more tax revenue than they produce locally. I know most of this was prompted by a misunderstanding of the word nationalism, but there are many misconceptions.
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