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  #16  
Old 04-16-2011, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
Personally I think it's better for a woman to only get involved in procreation with a man with whom she is married to or is about to marry. For me I think marriage would be a security thing, it seems a lot harder/ or at least less excused by society for a man to run from his wife than his girlfriend and a woman would be able to have a small safety net of the legal implications of marriage ie, child support if she is left with a baby by herself. Not to generalize men but this stuff does happen and getting into a physical relationship is a lot more risky for a woman, not including the risk of STDs.
This is the other problem; in a world full of love defined largely by western standards, there is little room for other ways of thinking.

In my opinion, physical relations are fine as long as mutual and undistorted consent is present, since any biological complications can be managed before they occur.

However, I think you have a lot of thinking to do if you're really that afraid of desertion, or you think it's common.

It isn't, and if you really love someone enough to engage in such behavior, you should do it; it's a part of being a sentient biological entity, and there's nothing wrong with partaking in it for the purpose of pleasure; humans have been doing that for hundreds of centuries, and nothing wrong has come of it.

Furthermore, at the risk of offending you, I should point out that such...paranoia of desertion or other problems are signs of underlying psychological issues......
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  #17  
Old 04-16-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Human No More
Too many people do it because they are expected to, and that is the attitude that needs to change.
That is a much better way of putting it really. People shouldn't do it because they feel obliged to, just because they should want to.
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  #18  
Old 04-16-2011, 01:14 PM
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Mune I agree with everything you wrote.

As for finding a mate and all of the things that goes along with it I believe people should leave their expectations at the door.

We see these relationships on television and in the movies and it gives us this idea of how it should be.

Placing a label on a relationship not only makes it seem as though you’re placing ownership on someone, but that label brings a certain level of expectations along with it too. Somehow these labels actually change how we view our significant other. Maybe not consciously, but it changes how we believe things should be subconsciously.

“We’re married now and (this) is how a husband or wife should be.”

The fact that the expectations may not be met places an unnecessary burden on the couple and can contribute to the relationship ending. Having unrealistically high expectations can be the primary cause of relationships gone wrong one after another. Men and women can’t be expected to do it all and when one does expect the other to perform to a set standard based on what the label suggests they should be doing it makes the relationship fall apart. I mean, you’ve heard these stories of married couples who divorced because they were always fighting and now that the expectation of one another is gone they get along great. I’ve seen couples who were together forever, but after they got married the marriage only lasted a year or two.

When I was in my early twenties I really wanted to get married, but not anymore. I thought about it one day and I honestly don’t understand what marriage is other than a title you give to two people who were already happily together in the first place. You know the saying; “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.” I believe that applies to relationships as well. I don’t understand this need to “take it to the next level.” I say if things are great as they are then it should be left alone.

Valentines’ day is something I just don’t get either. If you’re in love with someone you shouldn’t wait for one day out of the year to express that love to them. Why should I buy my woman roses, chocolates, and jewelry to show my love and appreciation on just Valentines’ day? I’m the type of guy who would rather surprise my girl on a day when she’s not expecting it. How can you do something on Valentines’ day and expect it to be a surprise? Like she’s not going to know you planned something. If you don’t do something on that day you get in trouble. For me it’s just a day not nearly as important as others. There are other days you could start celebrating to show appreciation towards women in general. There’s women’s health awareness and heart health month. There’s gender equality day and many other things you could actively participate in like the Susan G. Komen race for the cure.

You don’t have to buy her a new diamond ring each year…

I would much rather show her how I feel about her everyday without all the gimmicks.
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  #19  
Old 04-17-2011, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
Human beings aren't monogamous though, we're designed to further our species by having as many mates as possible, that's scientific fact so no, marriage isn't realistic at all.
There's investigation about that. It seems that sexual relation increases the release of the hormone oxytocin. Oxytocin, apparently, changes the brain behavior to allow more attachment to the partner... so, I think we are evolving towards monogamy. (At least I like to think so).

Anyway, marriage usually grants more safety to the couple. I'm not going to say that it is necessary, but in my experience, there's a point in the relationship when the marriage issue emerges and both partners agree to it, to demonstrate each other the commitment or the path each partner wants to take. It's like each other telling "I will be with you always" and it's something that emerges everyday. Marriage is not for everyone, it takes a lot of commitment.
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  #20  
Old 04-17-2011, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
This is the other problem; in a world full of love defined largely by western standards, there is little room for other ways of thinking.

In my opinion, physical relations are fine as long as mutual and undistorted consent is present, since any biological complications can be managed before they occur.

However, I think you have a lot of thinking to do if you're really that afraid of desertion, or you think it's common.

It isn't, and if you really love someone enough to engage in such behavior, you should do it; it's a part of being a sentient biological entity, and there's nothing wrong with partaking in it for the purpose of pleasure; humans have been doing that for hundreds of centuries, and nothing wrong has come of it.

Furthermore, at the risk of offending you, I should point out that such...paranoia of desertion or other problems are signs of underlying psychological issues......
Excuse me..I'm pretty insulted actually plus this is a debate thread so there is no need for any implied insults. I'm not saying that either single female parents are really common HNM and Raiden or telling you my personal beliefs but I am just concerned for those affected as I'm going to have to help them as a social worker in a few years, especially children who are being brought up without a mother or a father..
My main question is this: Why is this happening at all?? Does society persuade people through media to do these things?

Human no more: Please don't speak on behalf of me..Assuming you completely know what I am saying is wrong. I do not think that there aren't women who use men for money.
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  #21  
Old 04-17-2011, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
There's investigation about that. It seems that sexual relation increases the release of the hormone oxytocin. Oxytocin, apparently, changes the brain behavior to allow more attachment to the partner... so, I think we are evolving towards monogamy. (At least I like to think so).

Anyway, marriage usually grants more safety to the couple. I'm not going to say that it is necessary, but in my experience, there's a point in the relationship when the marriage issue emerges and both partners agree to it, to demonstrate each other the commitment or the path each partner wants to take. It's like each other telling "I will be with you always" and it's something that emerges everyday. Marriage is not for everyone, it takes a lot of commitment.
That's what I was trying to point out before. But marriage has flaws too.
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  #22  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:35 AM
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Ok, I really didn't want to get into this topic but I just have to share my thoughts and feelings.

I was a product of "a marriage" and I have to say that my ex husband was my soulmate. He and I had everything in common, had the same view points, he and l had the same twisted sense of humor, loved the same movies and music and we loved each other very much. Our wedding was simple, inexpensive and totally fun.

He and I shared everything together and we truly enjoyed one another company. Not only was he my husband and lover but my best friend in the world. He treated me like a queen and he had a heart of gold. I couldn't be more happier or so fortunate to have such a fantastic and wonderful man to share my life with.

But all those good times came to an end as I had my worst fear realized when I came home from work earlier than normal in April of 2001 and found him completely drunk and with another woman on my living room floor. Words cannot describe how I felt at the moment to see my best friend, husband and soulmate in that situation after years and years of telling me he loved me and he would never do anything to ever hurt me. Needless to say my heart and soul were broken and I was completely devastated beyond all comprehension.

I stayed with him to "work it out" for about a year but when someone does something like that to you and reliving and seeing that image forever burned in your mind it is not easy to move forward. I couldn't see myself staying with someone whom you have lost all your respect, trust, and love for after something such as that. He and I finally made the difficult decision to get divorced and I moved out of the state I was in. I have so much to offer in a relationship to my mate but a marriage I don't think I could do again. If that right person came into my life and the question was brought up, I might THINK about it but I wouldn't go through all that crap again. I would do it without the government or state involved. I think it should be a union only between you and your partner and your higher power if you believe in one.

I am still single and hoping to someday find my new soulmate but as far as my thoughts on marriage again, I don't think I would like to go down that path. I have now "seen the light" as far as marriage and yes, it is a contract both for you and your spouse as well as for monetary purposes for the government. A marriage certificate is just a piece of paper and it guarantees you absolutely nothing as I have been there, done that. Also when you are married, you always notice they say or mention "the State of Nevada,Utah, etc" we pronounce you man and wife. You are both now property of your government. Sick and wrong!

Valentines Day on the other hand, I enjoy it but never looked at it like a day were you had to show "extra love" more than others. It just one of those fun days were you can go out on a date or enjoy some flowers. I don't expect anything or done anything differently than others days of the year when it came to my significant other. I never did expect anything on Valentine's Day but I still enjoy it, I'm a girl what can I say. LOL

Anyways, I don't know if my info has an relevance or not but I just had to share my opinion and insight on the matter.
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  #23  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
Excuse me..I'm pretty insulted actually plus this is a debate thread so there is no need for any implied insults. I'm not saying that either single female parents are really common HNM and Raiden or telling you my personal beliefs but I am just concerned for those affected as I'm going to have to help them as a social worker in a few years, especially children who are being brought up without a mother or a father..
My main question is this: Why is this happening at all?? Does society persuade people through media to do these things?

Human no more: Please don't speak on behalf of me..Assuming you completely know what I am saying is wrong. I do not think that there aren't women who use men for money.
Fine, sorry if I assumed you thought that, that just seemed to be the implication. The part about 'risky' still stands though.
I've never understood this ridiculous opposition to single parents - if they are capable of looking after the child, and they choose to raise them themselves, then where's the issue? If you don't like them, don't have a child yourself. Remember that whenever you criticise single parents, you are criticising my family, who worked almost impossibly hard to make sure me and my sister had everything we wanted and were happy, and we were.
If you are interested in social work, then you'll soon realise that there are just as many married/together parents who don't look after their children as single parents. It's completely unrelated, and dependent on far too many factors to judge anyone like that. It's a good thing to do, wanting to help people, but with an attitude like 'x category of people are in the wrong', it's 'helping' for the wrong reason.

As for society, I'd say there is far too much pressure the opposite way - that is, to be together even if people are not right for each other, and to be married even if it isn't what they wanted, which is completely pointless if they honestly have feeling for each other - it should always be a matter of choice.

misstammie - that's really sad , and I hope one day you do find someone, you are such a great person, I know you deserve it. I can understand that once trust is gone, it doesn't come back though
I agree with your view about valentine's day - if people want to do something slightly special on the day, than that's good, that's as it should be, but I dislike the expectation, the way companies have commercialised it so they try to create the expectation that someone has to, to 'prove' their love - real love doesn't need proof. Making a small gesture is a good thing, but there's no need for a specific day, and it's not something that should be thought less of if not done.
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  #24  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by misstammie View Post
Ok, I really didn't want to get into this topic but I just have to share my thoughts and feelings.

I was a product of "a marriage" and I have to say that my ex husband was my soulmate. He and I had everything in common, had the same view points, he and l had the same twisted sense of humor, loved the same movies and music and we loved each other very much. Our wedding was simple, inexpensive and totally fun.

He and I shared everything together and we truly enjoyed one another company. Not only was he my husband and lover but my best friend in the world. He treated me like a queen and he had a heart of gold. I couldn't be more happier or so fortunate to have such a fantastic and wonderful man to share my life with.

But all those good times came to an end as I had my worst fear realized when I came home from work earlier than normal in April of 2001 and found him completely drunk and with another woman on my living room floor. Words cannot describe how I felt at the moment to see my best friend, husband and soulmate in that situation after years and years of telling me he loved me and he would never do anything to ever hurt me. Needless to say my heart and soul were broken and I was completely devastated beyond all comprehension.

I stayed with him to "work it out" for about a year but when someone does something like that to you and reliving and seeing that image forever burned in your mind it is not easy to move forward. I couldn't see myself staying with someone whom you have lost all your respect, trust, and love for after something such as that. He and I finally made the difficult decision to get divorced and I moved out of the state I was in. I have so much to offer in a relationship to my mate but a marriage I don't think I could do again. If that right person came into my life and the question was brought up, I might THINK about it but I wouldn't go through all that crap again. I would do it without the government or state involved. I think it should be a union only between you and your partner and your higher power if you believe in one.

I am still single and hoping to someday find my new soulmate but as far as my thoughts on marriage again, I don't think I would like to go down that path. I have now "seen the light" as far as marriage and yes, it is a contract both for you and your spouse as well as for monetary purposes for the government. A marriage certificate is just a piece of paper and it guarantees you absolutely nothing as I have been there, done that. Also when you are married, you always notice they say or mention "the State of Nevada,Utah, etc" we pronounce you man and wife. You are both now property of your government. Sick and wrong!

Valentines Day on the other hand, I enjoy it but never looked at it like a day were you had to show "extra love" more than others. It just one of those fun days were you can go out on a date or enjoy some flowers. I don't expect anything or done anything differently than others days of the year when it came to my significant other. I never did expect anything on Valentine's Day but I still enjoy it, I'm a girl what can I say. LOL

Anyways, I don't know if my info has an relevance or not but I just had to share my opinion and insight on the matter.
Sorry to hear about what he did to you.
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  #25  
Old 04-17-2011, 09:10 PM
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Sorry to hear about what he did to you.
Thank you ma'eylan and HNM. It was a very difficult thing for me to get through but I did and I thank my strong will, friends, and family for helping me get through it. I can't deny that trust is still a hard thing to do with people but with each day that goes by, things get better and better.

I moved on and I think I have become a stronger, more positive person in the long run. I do not have any animosity, hate, anger, ill feelings or regrets where my ex husband is concerned or for men in general. I might have had those feelings years ago but I have tried to channel all that into different hobbies,activities and more positive things.

I do hope to someday find me a new soulmate and share my interests, desires and love for. I haven't been in any kind of a rush to find or get into a new relationship again but if that right certain someone comes into my life, who knows.

I just know this that it would just be wonderful to share your feelings, love, aspirations, and soul with somebody again some day. In the meantime, I stay hopeful and positive with life and continue to still believe in love.
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  #26  
Old 04-17-2011, 10:37 PM
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As Lord Elrond of Rivendell said: "Men are weak" Really sorry to hear that happened to you. If I feel jealous from time to time, to be betrayed must feel like a kick in the throat, at least.
I think this whole thing about marriage is based 99% on the education of the couple. In my case, I was educated to commit to a single person, that a compromise of that kind is the most serious thing in life and that betrayal mostly ends in a lot of pain. My wife and I clearly put things before even dating, so we knew what to expect of each other, mostly. But that's my case, it's not entitled to be applied somewhere else. It seems to me that men are much more prone to look for adventures outside marriage and, if that happens, they try to hide it, expecting it to be magically solved instead acting like men and assuming responsibility of it.
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  #27  
Old 04-18-2011, 12:25 AM
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Fine, sorry if I assumed you thought that, that just seemed to be the implication. The part about 'risky' still stands though.
I've never understood this ridiculous opposition to single parents - if they are capable of looking after the child, and they choose to raise them themselves, then where's the issue? If you don't like them, don't have a child yourself. Remember that whenever you criticise single parents, you are criticising my family, who worked almost impossibly hard to make sure me and my sister had everything we wanted and were happy, and we were.
If you are interested in social work, then you'll soon realise that there are just as many married/together parents who don't look after their children as single parents. It's completely unrelated, and dependent on far too many factors to judge anyone like that. It's a good thing to do, wanting to help people, but with an attitude like 'x category of people are in the wrong', it's 'helping' for the wrong reason.

As for society, I'd say there is far too much pressure the opposite way - that is, to be together even if people are not right for each other, and to be married even if it isn't what they wanted, which is completely pointless if they honestly have feeling for each other - it should always be a matter of choice.
Human No More, thank you. I do think that a lot of single parent do a great job of parenting, I never said that single parenting is wrong. The only problem is that they have a harder time bringing up children than those who are together, for example both financially and they would have less time to bring them up with work ect. I would like to see the gap between single parents and parents closed so that the children have the same opportunities in life and the parent can have less pressure on them. It's the complete opposite to what you have said. The only "wrong" here is what made the single parent single that is it.
My best friend was raised by her father because her mother died from cancer when she was 8, I have nothing but admiration for single parents so please don't think otherwise.
Misstammie: I feel so sorry for you, that must be so horrible.
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  #28  
Old 04-18-2011, 01:50 AM
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This is the other problem; in a world full of love defined largely by western standards, there is little room for other ways of thinking.
A very powerful and true statement Raiden, in my opinion!

At the root of our being, all of us long for deep intimate (not just or limited to being defined physically) emotional relationships with others. None of us can survive without these connections. And the world, the universe, histories, have provided us with an infinite ways of possibility that we as beings can find, make, have, express those relationships to meet that need. All of us know how 'lost' and 'lonely' we feel without those connections.

And yes it would seem that the vast majority of humanity, as they mature and move towards adulthood, also long for a particularly strong connection, a singularity of relationship that is percieved as a 'life-long mutuality' of 'two' being together as 'one'. The global consistent 'label' that is usually attached being defined as the union known as 'Marriage'.

In some ways the philosophical aspect of this union of two as one is the belief that this is the perfect or perfection of this human condition of longing for connection. But is it? And if it is, why does it appear that it is 'failing' or 'flailing' round the globe in today's *cough* 'modern' societies?

Unquestionably part of the answer is that from the moment we arrive here in physical form on this earth we are showered or bombarded with experiences and messages that shape and define our perceptions and expectationis of love and relationships. As Raiden notes, that are largely influenced and limited by our cultural and world orientation ... the society scripts and labels, where we live.

Even Avatar presents the ideal .. within the confines of a particular perspective.

I will not argue with the generality of mankinds longing and observable inclination towards this union with the 'one other'. But I will observe that it is equally been proven and evident, that it is impossible for any singularity of relationship to be able to provide or meet all the needs of any individual, within the confines of that relationship. In other words ... how I see the problem is that 'expectation' is the inheritent flaw within the constructs and definition of the 'label'!

And it is those 'expectations' that become the burgeoning (burden) weighing down of our expressions of this longing.

At least wise the above is the 'Intelectualized' way of looking at it?

So 'what is love'? And what is this longing for a 'Beloved' .. a 'Soul Mate', .. a 'Kindred Spirit', .. a 'Spiritual Helpmeet', .. 'A Soul Companion' and why do we feel so empty, half not whole, without it? And is that connection the one and same or only limited to the union with the one whom we seek and usually join for 'life long mutuality'. Considering presently many of the global sociatal scripts seem to focus primarily on this union (aka) 'marital' relationship model as within mostly the physical/emotional/mental perspectives. Is the 'union' with the 'one other' meant to be the 'life long mutuality' relationship as well?

Confused .. so is probably each and every one of us!

Particularily, in my opinion, because the reality is that almost none, if any, of those cultural/sociatal scripts, necessairly have any strong negative messages or reprucussions regarding the sharing of ones emotional, mental, or even spirit aspects with others outside the percieved singular relationship. Where it boils down ... is that what is labeled as and upheld with strong conventions, laws, ordiances, scripts and seen as 'Taboo' is primarily focused on the 'physical' sharing element of the union relationship! Here it seems is where 'love' is not supposed to transcend a society's perception of the 'union' with a life long partner!

Yet, back to the awakening, the question, are we meant to, is it possible to have this complete 'completeness' of heart/mind/body/spirit with only one other? Or is the life-long mutuality relationship meant to be mostly for the 'physical' connection with some degree of affinity bonds to sustain it in the emotional, mental, and even possibly the spiritual realms, but the probability of it also being the 'Soul Mate' Connection not likely? At least wise that seems to be the apparent scenario emerging out of today's 'marital' breakdown statistics.

Maybe these breakdowns, flailings, are because so many historically and presently, have married under their percieved expectations - because they had too, or were limited within ones own thinking by those socital/cultural/religious/etc. scripts. It seems clear that a large proponent of individuals whose first (or more) marriage breaks down .. seem to focus the second time around more on the 'Soul Mate' Connection, the primary longing, within the new relationship.

So is humanity ready, is it possible to find from the outset the perfect union ... one that will consist of the life-long mutuality (particulairly of the emotional/mental/spiritual realms and needs), as well as the 'One', the longed for Soul Mate.

More in particular is it possible to acutally be able to make this sustained connection while still quite 'young', relatively speaking, in maturity and age? Considering most of those whom do eventually find their perfect uinon with their 'Beloved' ... have not done so till much later in life (aka --- the second time around).

Just a thought to consider .. are any of you so certain .. you can beat the odds?





(ok ... this is a parital thought .. and I'll hve to come back and finish later.)
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Last edited by Mika; 04-19-2011 at 03:14 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-18-2011, 07:28 AM
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Ikran Makto
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Only if they want to, then yes. Having some piece of paper means nothing though. There's no way that saying magical words makes you suddenly love someone when you didn't before, and not doing it doesn't make love inferior - if anything, people who stay together without that are more comfortable with each other, because they don't feel a need for coercion..
To each his own I guess.

Although I must add that the point of marriage originally was not to be coerced but rather the exact opposite, to enter into freely (which, unfortunately is not the case sometimes). And its done for the sake of trust, not necessarily love. I could fully love someone but that doesn't necessarily mean that I fully trust that person. Just speaking personally (not arguing that marriage is better or anything), I would find it very hard to place trust in another party if they weren't willing to put something at stake or willing to show some form of commitment. However, with great trust comes the potential for great betrayal (very sorry about what happened MissTammie ).

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Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
The only problem is that they have a harder time bringing up children than those who are together, for example both financially and they would have less time to bring them up with work ect. I would like to see the gap between single parents and parents closed so that the children have the same opportunities in life and the parent can have less pressure on them.
I can sympathize with this personally in my life. Working at a local food pantry occasionally, I see a lot of single parents with children. There is nothing wrong with them, in fact they are even quite heroic. Looking at the amount of food we have available to give them sometimes, I wonder how they can even manage to get by (especially when its like a 50 or 60 year old mother with 4 or 5 kids). It takes a lot to have the strength to take care of them. It can be depressing at times to see it happen.

Last edited by Banefull; 04-18-2011 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:10 PM
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Toruk Makto, Admin
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I honestly think the idea is good (although I'm not so interested myself, primarily due to it still having religious links) in terms of staying with someone - but as you said, it was originally a choice to. In many countries, having a child when not married would lead to a massive social stigma and reduced rights even for the child themselves - thankfully, most of the world has moved away from that though. Trusting isn't an exchange, a negotiation or a transaction - it is putting yourself at a risk in some way, and hoping the other person won't take advantage of it (and they should do the same in that context).
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