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Old 04-13-2011, 10:59 PM
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DISCLAIMER: This was written by me ages ago- So... That explains the date at the bottom. I am welcome to criticism, or questioning of points. No direct attacks were intended.

In modern society, the regular idea is that once you 'fall in love' with someone, you engage in a battle of wits between what your 'head wants', and what your 'heart wants'. The idea is that a persons heart will obviously want to be with the respective person that they love spending time with, in a labelled form. The integrity of the idea is based on the public. Should it be just 'the two'. There would be no need for the whole issue of going through the 'asking out process'.

Basically put, there are more than enough psychological factors to asking a person to 'go out' with you. Even if one's heart desires another, they still have to overcome the principles behind 'peer pressure, potential rejection, contingency-plans (that is, planning what to do if something happens they don't expect), a set line to say for example. More examples of addition of stress to the situation include what to do physically, wondering what they'll think of you, wondering if they'll be around their peers.

I recall a friend, and I will not name him for obvious reasons, as if I did it would be nothing but gossip- But he walked over to a girl he had had a crush on for some time, and handed her a box of chocolates. She, in turn, nervously took the box, with her friends around, and they both walked in opposite directions. Almost nothing happened.

Now, if I were to resimulate the entire series of events, with the lack of people around, I'm willing to bet that there would of been a completely different outcome. Good or bad, I don't know. But there would of been a different outcome.

I've conversed with many about the idea of a relationship and I just don't feel the need to be in one. I've a girl who I love dearly with all my heart, and I don't feel the need that there needs to be any labels involved in order for it to be any more official than it already is. The way I see it- Relationships are a form of ownership, not active ownership, subconscious ownership. The idea that being in a relationship- If something 'bad' happens. You can call it 'cheating'. Also, I don't understand, and I never will understand the principle of 'dumping' someone. That in itself is a pretty draconian way of putting it. The idea that you've suddenly fallen out of love with someone, and the label must now be broken, but saying that you've *dumped* them.

Well for a start, if one truly loves another, then they will overcome any arguments or fights. In fact, it pretty much has the same aspects as the immune system. With no arguments, no proverbial pathogens, the bond will be weak. It needs to be tested. Attacked. "Let's see just how strong these bonds are."

Valentines day. There's a joke for you. A day in which a couple are expected to show a higher-than-average love towards eachother. Things such as kissing in public become socially acceptable, just because of words given to a day. This is nonsense. Not only is it once again, another advertising campaign designed to scam gullible couples out of their money, but it also has been given a mascot. Oh yes. Cupid. The naked baby with a weapon of war. How cute. I'm no judge, but I certainly believe that if you 'look forward' to Valentines day for an enhanced amount of portrayed love from your other half, then something isn't right. There shouldn't be any specific days where particularly high standards of love are shown. It should be a constant. A bond. I won't talk much of this because I'm probably getting seen as cynical. Which would be a compliment, but nonetheless, as long as these points are being taken no-less-seriously, I don't mind.

One last point which I wish to arise is 'marriage' which, I really do just find a joke. I do respect those who were brought up with marriages all around them, and have led 'long loving marriages of 25 years'. But I do NOT respect marriage restricted things.

My instant thought from this is, that I am certainly against those who wish to wait until they get married to do anything sexual. Depending on their reasoning. If their case revolves around "I'm not doing it because it says in the bible."- Then that is made void and ridiculous in my mind, and ridicule it I shall. If they have valid reasoning, such as they do not want to risk getting pregnant, then I'll take it slightly more seriously, though saying that, getting married does certainly not show being ready for a baby. Neither does age. It's something that one and their partner must decide through heavy thinking. Bringing another life into this world, but anyway- I'm not here to tell you how to live. I'm just expressing points of view.

But I digress, from pregnancy back to the original point- Marriage. Marriage is a nice little day for the girl, and a nice little day for the guy to impress the girl, but other than that, I see it as a shallow, hollow, event that should not need to go forward in the first place. It seems that modernly, all that people care about is making things official. Since when does putting two metallic rings on your fingers count as an official life-time psychological bond being made.

And don't even get me started on divorce.

/End entry- 10:52 pm - 14/12/2010
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:22 PM
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If you don't want to use these terms, then don't.

If you fall in love with a girl, and spend the rest of your life with her etc. then people will say you're in a relationship. You don't like that term? Want to use another one? Fine! That's totally not the point. It's just a word, as are all of these evil "labels," that people use to communicate ideas. You seem so afraid that everyone is going to make all kinds of nasty assumptions about you the second you start letting them use "labels" on you. You're making these words mean something more than they do by talking about them, and acting like they do. Most people couldn't care less.

If I enjoy Valentines day, for instance, with my girlfriend it doesn't mean that I wouldn't have enjoyed it without the name attached, or that I'm getting scammed, or any of that. It's a fun, trivial little holiday. You make it out to be a symptom of some horrible disease. It can help people remember how much they love the other person. You think they shouldn't need a day to do that? I agree, but then Valentines day isn't even the problem is it?

You're human just like anyone else, and we all (pretty much) experience love just as you do. I don't think you should care how others describe it or what they chose to do with it, and if someone tries to force their views onto you (which I think happens less than you think), then don't let them.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icu View Post
If you don't want to use these terms, then don't.

If you fall in love with a girl, and spend the rest of your life with her etc. then people will say you're in a relationship. You don't like that term? Want to use another one? Fine! That's totally not the point. It's just a word, as are all of these evil "labels," that people use to communicate ideas. You seem so afraid that everyone is going to make all kinds of nasty assumptions about you the second you start letting them use "labels" on you. You're making these words mean something more than they do by talking about them, and acting like they do. Most people couldn't care less.

If I enjoy Valentines day, for instance, with my girlfriend it doesn't mean that I wouldn't have enjoyed it without the name attached, or that I'm getting scammed, or any of that. It's a fun, trivial little holiday. You make it out to be a symptom of some horrible disease. It can help people remember how much they love the other person. You think they shouldn't need a day to do that? I agree, but then Valentines day isn't even the problem is it?

You're human just like anyone else, and we all (pretty much) experience love just as you do. I don't think you should care how others describe it or what they chose to do with it, and if someone tries to force their views onto you (which I think happens less than you think), then don't let them.
Well said. Although I do disagree with the second paragraph. For a few reasons.

Quote:
If I enjoy Valentines day, for instance, with my girlfriend it doesn't mean that I wouldn't have enjoyed it without the name attached, or that I'm getting scammed, or any of that.
For the idea behind Valentines day- I wasn't arguing a point of it's label. I was arguing it's point in general. Forgive the false idea that was given across. But on the note- If you don't believe you're getting scammed- This is why Valentines day is such an effective business time.

Quote:
It's a fun, trivial little holiday. You make it out to be a symptom of some horrible disease. It can help people remember how much they love the other person. You think they shouldn't need a day to do that?
It is not fun from my point of view. It's agonising, although somewhat pleasing to watch other humans put all of their money in the sink for an over-rated day.

I do not think a day is needed, and I'm aware you agree, so that's that.

And- One point from the first paragraph;


Quote:
You're making these words mean something more than they do by talking about them, and acting like they do. Most people couldn't care less.
Well, I disagree. If I hug, and kiss someone who I love- The question "Is she your girlfriend?" instantly arises. It seems to me that, in this race, any sign of affection constitutes a very defined relation. Then again- I'm only speaking from the UKs point of view. I'm sure in countries like Italy- Hugs and kisses among friends are very much common.
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Old 04-14-2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
But I digress, from pregnancy back to the original point- Marriage. Marriage is a nice little day for the girl, and a nice little day for the guy to impress the girl, but other than that, I see it as a shallow, hollow, event that should not need to go forward in the first place. It seems that modernly, all that people care about is making things official. Since when does putting two metallic rings on your fingers count as an official life-time psychological bond being made.
I agree with this. I have been with my gf for 10 years and not doing the marriage thing. Nowadays it seems like "Marriage" is just a contract that can be torn up and discarded just like a piece of paper on a desk and is too often used for scamming money or monetary gains.

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Old 04-14-2011, 06:30 PM
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Well, Mune, I could have said exactly the same things myself - I agree with everything you said to 100%.
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Old 04-15-2011, 12:46 AM
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I've spent a long time thinking about this... the need for a lifemate is something extremely important to almost every person, and people are biologically programmed to seek it out.
I honestly do need someone... but I can understand the idea of wanting someone but not having a name for it. Really though, having a part of yourself as being with another is an important thing, it's a deep emotional connection.
I completely agree about the difficulties of finding someone though... I've tried every way really - from waiting and hoping, to honestly looking, but the truth is, many people are not at the same stage, not looking for the same thing, or are already with someone. Finding someone like-minded seems impossible , and even the ways I've tried end up badly. People didn't evolve to be alone, and too many people have this idea that being with anyone is preferable, of love as something it is not, and that just makes looking for a true lifemate even harder.

Things like marriage, I don't like the concept that much - if people want to choose to have one, then they can and should, but there becomes this sort of expectation, as if to say 'you don't love each other unless you have some piece of paper' - it implies that people do not really trust each other, and need to be coerced and held to each other, when if there was honestly trust, they wouldn't need that. While I'm certainly not opposed to the concept, the only way I would ever consider it is purely for financial reasons, and then just quietly, minimally, because it isn't a big deal and shouldn't be required. Sometimes people want whatever approval, often simple social pressure, which is a very bad thing, but it's the reason for many. People who genuinely care about each other can be happy with trust.

If people want to enjoy valentines day as it should be - of appreciation for each other, then they can and should - but the fact remains that is is hugely commercialised and companies try to create an expectation - that you 'must' buy them something if you love them. IT's the same as marriage, that it becomes expected and many people do it for acceptance, when if the love is there, it isn't necessary.

Icu is right about 'labels' (actually a term I despise in that context, because all they are is a description) - it doesn't matter what you call it, or even if you want to, it still remains the same thing. Equally, terms can apply to something that is not the same thing, but the need for someone is a deep biological and psychological need.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:22 AM
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Heh, I was expecting Mune to post something like this...

I agree; marriage and valentine's day are foolish, contrived things that people have invented to make marriages legally official and to make a profit, respectively. Some people enjoy it, but if I gave a damn and had someone else, I would be reluctant to engage in such events.

Although I tend to despise love in general, these are one of the main reasons why; it has gone from an amazing complex of psychological bonding to a corrupted miasma of price tags and legal papers.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
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... it has gone from an amazing complex of psychological bonding to a corrupted miasma of price tags and legal papers.
Happily married though I am, it is rather impossible to argue with that. Sadly.
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:33 AM
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Whoa there guys..... hold on.

I think love has nothing to do with any of what you just said inherently. What some people chose to DO with love might, but that has nothing to do with what love actually IS.

No body is holding a gun to your head and forcing these legal papers and price tags down your throat. If you find someone who you love and you both don't want any part of those things, then avoid them! Some people may not avoid them, but you are not "some people". Do what you want with love, there's nothing in the definition that makes any of these things necessary.

This is why I don't buy much into the "labels" hate. Because no matter what anyway says you can always chose to act however you want. Then who cares what "they" try to call you. It has no direct bearing on your actions or beliefs, and thus it only matters if you chose to let it matter to you.

And besides, not too long ago, in what apparently were the good ole days of love, people were basically told who to love/marry (and to some extent today), as determined by social status, wealth, education, etc. I don't think you can look at love throughout history and say that it's collapsing or anything.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icu View Post
Whoa there guys..... hold on.

I think love has nothing to do with any of what you just said inherently. What some people chose to DO with love might, but that has nothing to do with what love actually IS.

No body is holding a gun to your head and forcing these legal papers and price tags down your throat. If you find someone who you love and you both don't want any part of those things, then avoid them! Some people may not avoid them, but you are not "some people". Do what you want with love, there's nothing in the definition that makes any of these things necessary.

This is why I don't buy much into the "labels" hate. Because no matter what anyway says you can always chose to act however you want. Then who cares what "they" try to call you. It has no direct bearing on your actions or beliefs, and thus it only matters if you chose to let it matter to you.

And besides, not too long ago, in what apparently were the good ole days of love, people were basically told who to love/marry (and to some extent today), as determined by social status, wealth, education, etc. I don't think you can look at love throughout history and say that it's collapsing or anything.
No, it isn't collapsing, but that was the start of what we have now, and I doubt it will get better.

Although I agree with what you said, I can't help but feel that nearly all of it has been tainted by what I mentioned. I would have to get very far away from modern societies to find what I'm thinking of.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:22 AM
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There's still an expectation by many people, which certainly does NOT help.
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:53 AM
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Personally I think it's better for a woman to only get involved in procreation with a man with whom she is married to or is about to marry. For me I think marriage would be a security thing, it seems a lot harder/ or at least less excused by society for a man to run from his wife than his girlfriend and a woman would be able to have a small safety net of the legal implications of marriage ie, child support if she is left with a baby by herself. Not to generalize men but this stuff does happen and getting into a physical relationship is a lot more risky for a woman, not including the risk of STDs.
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:27 PM
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Largely Mune, I agree with what you're saying here... However, the concept of marriage (which seems to be the big sticking point here for a lot of people) I disagree with.

Aside from all the standard legal, monetary, childcare and all those kinds of issues... My argument would be that, if you love someone enough, enough to know that you want to be with them for a lifetime, then why not? In that case, it wouldn't be 'the signatures' holding you together, it would actually be the love that you do and will continue to share. And if you do love each other that much, you both would know that you're not bound together just legally but lovingly as well.

I don't see it as almost 'handcuffing' two people together, I see it as just another ritual of love and dedication.
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:21 PM
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I don't think there is anything wrong with marriage but rather, the extreme formalization of the process has gone off in the wrong direction. If two people are truly unified, they might as well be considered married.

As far as labels go, its a form of arguing with semantics. Labels are often put in place to make things sound better or sound worse. In the poltical sphere, a lot of political wrangling happens over how to "word" or "name" laws, conditions, or processes because it changes the way people think (in a scary manner). Humans tend to seek patterns in things and often times, association becomes confused with cause and effect.

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Old 04-16-2011, 03:03 AM
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Those risks are exactly the same as for men, and if you think that there are no women who use men for money, then you are deluding yourself. The only way it is 'more risky' is pregnancy, and that is easily mitigated with proper use of contraception.
There is nothing wrong with someone (of either gender) having a child by themselves, either directly by choice or by leaving a partner who turns out to be unsuitable, to say otherwise is an insult to everyone and their family whose parents were not married.

Quote:
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I don't think there is anything wrong with marriage but rather, the extreme formalization of the process has gone off in the wrong direction. If two people are truly unified, they might as well be considered married.
Only if they want to, then yes. Having some piece of paper means nothing though. There's no way that saying magical words makes you suddenly love someone when you didn't before, and not doing it doesn't make love inferior - if anything, people who stay together without that are more comfortable with each other, because they don't feel a need for coercion.

Quote:
Aside from all the standard legal, monetary, childcare and all those kinds of issues... My argument would be that, if you love someone enough, enough to know that you want to be with them for a lifetime, then why not? In that case, it wouldn't be 'the signatures' holding you together, it would actually be the love that you do and will continue to share. And if you do love each other that much, you both would know that you're not bound together just legally but lovingly as well.
If that love is truly there, then you don't need a contract to show it. On the other hand, if someone doesn't trust the other, than something like that makes a lot of sense from their point of view.
Too many people do it because they are expected to, and that is the attitude that needs to change.
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