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Old 03-22-2010, 06:12 PM
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Default Is Love Of The Environment And Love For Human Life Incompatible?

I recently posted a thread similar to this on AF but I didn't get to many responses. This is an issue that I have been pondering since some of the discussions on AF and one of them on TOS dealt with this issue.

Can the two go together in harmony? Is it imperative to hate humans in order to love the environment and work toward ways to improve it?

Is all of humanity so imminently doomed that it would be better if a good part of us were wiped off the face of the earth?

Has all the hate that we have for each other brought us to this? That we would willingly let others die and even actively pursue goals that would reduce the amount of children that each person could have, etc?

Even worse, is it truly in the best interest of the earth to control who can reproduce and who can't and who is to decide this?

Are we nothing more than trash to some? Is this truly what most environmentalists believe? I am environmentally conscious but I also love all live, including human life and it is so appalling to me that someone, anyone could think it is necessary to reduce the population of "dumber" people so that the more "enlightened" ones can keep reproducing.

I have seen this attitude several times now. Mostly on the other board. It is scary to me. This is the sort of attitude that Hitler had. This is the sort of attitude that leads to the "final solution." Have we become so callous to human life? Is it worth anything anymore?

I am very saddened by this attitude. It is hurtful. I see all life as a gift. Human life is a gift.

I don't believe this is the sort of message that Avatar was trying to convey either. The RDA saw the Na'vi as worthless. They didn't have any qualms about destroying them and their home. One of the messages was that we are connected, that we should love each other more and see the other person. These are very important messages and I am saddened because I feel that this very important message is getting lost in all of this talk on some of the other threads.

What do you think? Is it possible for love of human life and protection of human life to be compatible with love and protection of our environment. Both need our help. We are a part of this world just as much as the plants and animals, etc. Is there no way that they can be compatible? Must people die in large numbers to protect the earth? Is this the only solution?
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:39 PM
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I like to follow the Aristotelian principle in this case: "The just is the midpoint"

Between completely mechanize and industrialize our lives or be completely undeveloped technologically and live in the woods like animals; I believe we could make a midpoint. Keep our knowledge and technology yet care about the environment, and don't harm it at all. Know that what feeds us comes from our soil, yet don't trash 5000 years of advances on agriculture, stockbreeding and fishing.

You can have the best of both together, it's just about finding a way to reach the midpoint.
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel77 View Post
I recently posted a thread similar to this on AF but I didn't get to many responses. This is an issue that I have been pondering since some of the discussions on AF and one of them on TOS dealt with this issue.

Can the two go together in harmony? Is it imperative to hate humans in order to love the environment and work toward ways to improve it?

Is all of humanity so imminently doomed that it would be better if a good part of us were wiped off the face of the earth?

Has all the hate that we have for each other brought us to this? That we would willingly let others die and even actively pursue goals that would reduce the amount of children that each person could have, etc?

Even worse, is it truly in the best interest of the earth to control who can reproduce and who can't and who is to decide this?

Are we nothing more than trash to some? Is this truly what most environmentalists believe? I am environmentally conscious but I also love all live, including human life and it is so appalling to me that someone, anyone could think it is necessary to reduce the population of "dumber" people so that the more "enlightened" ones can keep reproducing.

I have seen this attitude several times now. Mostly on the other board. It is scary to me. This is the sort of attitude that Hitler had. This is the sort of attitude that leads to the "final solution." Have we become so callous to human life? Is it worth anything anymore?

I am very saddened by this attitude. It is hurtful. I see all life as a gift. Human life is a gift.

I don't believe this is the sort of message that Avatar was trying to convey either. The RDA saw the Na'vi as worthless. They didn't have any qualms about destroying them and their home. One of the messages was that we are connected, that we should love each other more and see the other person. These are very important messages and I am saddened because I feel that this very important message is getting lost in all of this talk on some of the other threads.

What do you think? Is it possible for love of human life and protection of human life to be compatible with love and protection of our environment. Both need our help. We are a part of this world just as much as the plants and animals, etc. Is there no way that they can be compatible? Must people die in large numbers to protect the earth? Is this the only solution?
Interesting point. But when time will come, time will tell, and nature will choose for itself who will survive and who won't, just that we still have a psychological bond to nature through separate religions that suport worshiping for the environment and organisations that hold on to the wonders nature still wants us to see. Our problem is that we cannot stop exploiting and consuming Earth's resources for our needs... on the other hand we can live without petrol and other underground resources. Ecologism made thousands of people to think about an equillibrium between artificial and natural and I'm getting pretty optimistic about it...

Time will come too and we will realise that there's much more in this world than money and material-based lifestyle. We just have to grow... we're at the point where "we are like babies, we cannot see and we must learn to see cause no one can teach us to do that".

I believe that we can do it...
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
I like to follow the Aristotelian principle in this case: "The just is the midpoint"

Between completely mechanize and industrialize our lives or be completely undeveloped technologically and live in the woods like animals; I believe we could make a midpoint. Keep our knowledge and technology yet care about the environment, and don't harm it at all. Know that what feeds us comes from our soil, yet don't trash 5000 years of advances on agriculture, stockbreeding and fishing.

You can have the best of both together, it's just about finding a way to reach the midpoint.
This is what I want to see... Unfortunately, I feel that we have passed it in many ways, going towards an RDA-Earth
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rapunzel77 View Post
Must people die in large numbers to protect the earth? Is this the only solution?
No, imo.

We can't save earth, I'm sorry to be so "negative" here, but it's not going to happen. Humanity will die, sooner or later. Probably during the next few hundred years. Whether we take all the other form of life with us (nuclear weapons could easily knock out all life on earth for the next 10 000 years), it doesn't matter, because life will develop in places it's possible.

In Avatar, Pandora is "eden". (sorry to take this religious stuff here.. it's just the easiest way to explain things like this) Na'vi are "The People", those who never fell and unlike on Humans, Na'vi are truly "The People", made by Eywa, very different to other forms of life on Pandora. They are able to control animals like Pali and Ikran. Everything on Pandora is made by "God" (Which in this case means JC + 100 artists)

So Pandora is where everything's in perfect harmony. Now this isn't possible on Earth because (as noone can really deny evolution) Humans were never made by God, or controlled by Eywa. Humans are like all the other forms of life on Earth: Controlled by the instinct of survival: Kill, destory, do anything if it means you benefit from it.

Even though we can't change our destiny we should not be depressed about it. In fact, I hope Humans do not find a way to survive, because, as we are not controlled by a planet wide brain, benevolent Eywa, the story would start to become a lot like RDA in Avatar..

Life is a beautiful thing, and no one should waste it. Avatar is a great piece of art, which reminds us of that. It tells us in full dimensions, what are the important things in life. We should enjoy the time we have here; respect, love ourselves, the others and the environment. Because everyone deserves this beautiful life we have. Lets live it, until the end.

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Old 03-22-2010, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
I like to follow the Aristotelian principle in this case: "The just is the midpoint"

Between completely mechanize and industrialize our lives or be completely undeveloped technologically and live in the woods like animals; I believe we could make a midpoint. Keep our knowledge and technology yet care about the environment, and don't harm it at all. Know that what feeds us comes from our soil, yet don't trash 5000 years of advances on agriculture, stockbreeding and fishing.

You can have the best of both together, it's just about finding a way to reach the midpoint.
Personally this is my view point. I believe it to be both/and not either/or but I have been saddened by some of the views that have been expressed elsewhere that seem to pit the two against each other. I don't believe that they have to be.
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
This is what I want to see... Unfortunately, I feel that we have passed it in many ways, going towards an RDA-Earth
Exactly. I want to see this as well. I also have been saddened by the direction many are taking. I hope we don't become an RDA-Earth. That would be awful . Hopefully, by learning to "see" we can stem the tide, maybe?
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosus View Post
We can't save earth, I'm sorry to be so "negative" here, but it's not going to happen. Humanity will die, sooner or later. Probably during the next few hundred years. Whether we take all the other form of life with us (nuclear weapons could easily knock out all life on earth for the next 10 000 years), it doesn't matter, because life will develop in places it's possible.
I understand your negativity about this issue but I can't see it as dire as that. Hopefully it won't come to that point. I don't think that anyone on here would want it to.

Quote:
So Pandora is where everything's in perfect harmony. Now this isn't possible on Earth because (as noone can really deny evolution) Humans were never made by God, or controlled by Eywa. Humans are like all the other forms of life on Earth: Controlled by the instinct of survival: Kill, destory, do anything if it means you benefit from it.
Pandora is an Eden of sorts. The earth can never go back to an "eden" but not everyone here would agree that humans weren't made by anyone. Evolution explains what happened physically but there are several of us who would believe that there was/is something or someone behind the evolution.

Quote:
Even though we can't change our destiny we should not be depressed about it. In fact, I hope Humans do not find a way to survive, because, as we are not controlled by a planet wide brain, benevolent Eywa, the story would start to become a lot like RDA in Avatar..
I hope for something better. I don't think it is entirely our destiny to become extinct.

Quote:
Life is a beautiful thing, and no one should waste it. Avatar is a great piece of art, which reminds us of that. It tells us in full dimensions, what are the important things in life. We should enjoy the time we have here; respect, love ourselves, the others and the environment. Because everyone deserves this beautiful life we have. Lets live it, until the end.
I definitely agree here. This is very important to remember that we should love and respect ourselves, each other, and our environment.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosus View Post

In Avatar, Pandora is "eden". Everything on Pandora is made by "God".

So Pandora is where everything's in perfect harmony. Now this isn't possible on Earth... Humans are like all the other forms of life on Earth: Controlled by the instinct of survival: Kill, destory, do anything if it means you benefit from it.

We should enjoy the time we have here; respect, love ourselves, the others and the environment. Because everyone deserves this beautiful life we have. Lets live it, until the end.
I'm not going to trend into religion (I know that never goes well) but I agree with the points you made here Fosus. Pandora really is almost too good to be true. All the human-like creatures get a long and they live in harmony - and respect the bond - with nature. I wish we could do the same.

But it's the differences between our nationalities and races, and even languages that drive us apart. We are naturally greedy - obsessed with material possessions and money rather than living peacefully which is the way I wish it were.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:09 AM
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Currently , they are both incompatible , due to our manipulated minds and our attitude those two will under the circumstances we have these days not be in harmony , we are hipocrits , at the same time we claim to be environmentalists we throw away our MC Donalds trash while we are talking about caring for our world .

Mankind thinks that to be "healthy" and to be "flourishing" it needs to cut down endless amounts of trees , burn endless amounts of fosil fuel , create dangerous plastics and other material that poisons our environment , just to maintain our parasite society that slowly drains the lifeblood from our planet .

So , currently those two are incompatible , at least in large scales if you look at the whole of mankind , you clearly see , we are being hipocrits about it .

There's a quote from a movie that fits quite well , the movies name is "Shooter" :

"Your moral compass is so f****d up, I'd be surprised if you'd find the way to the parking lot".

Pretty much the same goes for mankind in my oppinion , we are so manipulated and our nature has been perverted into something that is merely wrong , as said , our moral compass is too f****d up , that we can't make right decisions anymore , plus we let others do the thinking for us , that's what we always wanted, no responsibility means you can't be blamed and are able to blame it on others if things go wrong .

Mankind just doesn't care anymore , for most of the people it's survival of the fittest without caring for others , but that game will be over sooner or later , because this bubble we are living in is one day going to burst like rapunzel mentioned it in another thread and people will have to go back to basics , and I hardly doubt that they will be able to do that , because civilization was like a drug for them , they'll try to regain it instead of working for a better world .

In my eyes , mankind has to fall to be able to see what it has done to itself , but what if we won't ? We will probably search for the faults somewhere else but from realizing that we are the ones who actually failed , civilization/the western world is only a current state that is not going to last forever , mankind is about to reach is climax if you refer to "civilization" which I see more as a cheap copy of life , and if it's reached , things are going to change , whether to the good or to the bad , in my oppinion , mankind is too vulnerable to it's lower instincts to rise above itself and act rightly , we love to give ourselves to dreamworlds and false ideals in which we can get lost , which is our weak point number 1, but well , we will see it in the future how it developes , mostly things get alot worse before they can get better .
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Old 03-27-2010, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep View Post
In my eyes , mankind has to fall to be able to see what it has done to itself , but what if we won't ? We will probably search for the faults somewhere else but from realizing that we are the ones who actually failed , civilization/the western world is only a current state that is not going to last forever , mankind is about to reach is climax if you refer to "civilization" which I see more as a cheap copy of life , and if it's reached , things are going to change , whether to the good or to the bad , in my oppinion , mankind is too vulnerable to it's lower instincts to rise above itself and act rightly , we love to give ourselves to dreamworlds and false ideals in which we can get lost , which is our weak point number 1, but well , we will see it in the future how it developes , mostly things get alot worse before they can get better .
You know my personal thoughts on these issues . I don't think they are incompatible. I think they can work together and that Love is the only way that they will. However i agree with your assessment of the current state of "civilization." It is in a very sad state. You are also right that things will have to get a lot worse until they get better .
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rapunzel77 View Post
You know my personal thoughts on these issues . I don't think they are incompatible. I think they can work together and that Love is the only way that they will. However i agree with your assessment of the current state of "civilization." It is in a very sad state. You are also right that things will have to get a lot worse until they get better .
I meant that they can work together , but the current situation doesn't let them work together , so in general it is possible , it's just a thing of changing peoples minds
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Old 03-28-2010, 05:30 PM
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Big famine crisis will start 2020...
The climate is already badly messed... and will get worse.
How about all the rubbish a "modern society" creates every day?
All the **** is either piled up on land:


Or drowned into the sea which begins to show up on some coasts:


Or even worse, burned up into the air:


The environment is the first loser here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep View Post
I meant that they can work together , but the current situation doesn't let them work together , so in general it is possible , it's just a thing of changing peoples minds
But you do realize that's impossible for the mankind, do you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep View Post
we will see it in the future how it developes , mostly things get alot worse before they can get better .
^ This

This will mean humanity dying and Earth slowly recovering. It's impossible for the whole humanity "to get back to the nature". That's a fact.
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Old 03-28-2010, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosus View Post
Big famine crisis will start 2020...
The climate is already badly messed... and will get worse.
How about all the rubbish a "modern society" creates every day?
All the **** is either piled up on land:


Or drowned into the sea which begins to show up on some coasts:


Or even worse, burned up into the air:


The environment is the first loser here.



But you do realize that's impossible for the mankind, do you ?


^ This

This will mean humanity dying and Earth slowly recovering. It's impossible for the whole humanity "to get back to the nature". That's a fact.
You are right , the majority of mankind isn't and won't be willing to change , that's because they don't see themselves as the cause , they blame it on governments and industrials , but they also carry a big part .
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Old 04-18-2010, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel77 View Post
I recently posted a thread similar to this on AF but I didn't get to many responses. This is an issue that I have been pondering since some of the discussions on AF and one of them on TOS dealt with this issue.

Can the two go together in harmony? Is it imperative to hate humans in order to love the environment and work toward ways to improve it?

Is all of humanity so imminently doomed that it would be better if a good part of us were wiped off the face of the earth?

Has all the hate that we have for each other brought us to this? That we would willingly let others die and even actively pursue goals that would reduce the amount of children that each person could have, etc?

Even worse, is it truly in the best interest of the earth to control who can reproduce and who can't and who is to decide this?

Are we nothing more than trash to some? Is this truly what most environmentalists believe? I am environmentally conscious but I also love all live, including human life and it is so appalling to me that someone, anyone could think it is necessary to reduce the population of "dumber" people so that the more "enlightened" ones can keep reproducing.

I have seen this attitude several times now. Mostly on the other board. It is scary to me. This is the sort of attitude that Hitler had. This is the sort of attitude that leads to the "final solution." Have we become so callous to human life? Is it worth anything anymore?

I am very saddened by this attitude. It is hurtful. I see all life as a gift. Human life is a gift.

I don't believe this is the sort of message that Avatar was trying to convey either. The RDA saw the Na'vi as worthless. They didn't have any qualms about destroying them and their home. One of the messages was that we are connected, that we should love each other more and see the other person. These are very important messages and I am saddened because I feel that this very important message is getting lost in all of this talk on some of the other threads.

What do you think? Is it possible for love of human life and protection of human life to be compatible with love and protection of our environment. Both need our help. We are a part of this world just as much as the plants and animals, etc. Is there no way that they can be compatible? Must people die in large numbers to protect the earth? Is this the only solution?
It is scary and of great concern to me as well...
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