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  #16  
Old 10-10-2011, 08:18 AM
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Michael Moore has no understanding of politics.

Yes, occupy wall street does appear communist. It's an attack against the rights of people to do business. I doubt anyone honestly thinks this is actually going to change anything - what, governments will go "what? - some trust fund kids who have had everything handed to them and claim to be a socialist despite only getting where they are thanks to their parents are playing politics? oh noes!"?


If you say 'it's just anarchist', then I'll ask this - anarchism may well seem fine if you have a large secure compound with independent food and energy supplies and enough people to keep it secure, but if you're just living in a normal place, anarchism means anyone can break in, shoot you and take everything you want, and there are no police to stop them and no courts to punish them even if they get stopped. Would you truly want to live somewhere with no government, no police, no emergency services, no justice system, no hospitals? Hint: It exists - it's called Somalia.
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Yes, occupy wall street does appear communist. It's an attack against the rights of people to do business.
The banks and those in the sharemarket shouldn't have to be bailed out by the same people who they have rendered destitute or lesser then what they were.
That isn't a communist demand, it's a demand for fairness. Especially when people in the financial system in the US have a big say in what goes on in politics.

From The Occupy site: About Us | OccupyWallSt.org
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The participation of every person, and every organization, that has an interest in returning the US back into the hands of it's individual citizens is required.

Our nation, our species and our world are in crisis. The US has an important role to play in the solution, but we can no longer afford to let corporate greed and corrupt politics set the policies if our nation.

We, the people of the United States of America, considering the crisis at hand, now reassert our sovereign control of our land.
I hardly call this communist..Since when should people in the business sector get away with helping to create one of the biggest financial crisis' of the last few decades?
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2011, 09:45 AM
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Interesting, but it doesn't change how it appears. It still looks very much like the same kind of uneducated person who wears a Che Guevara tshirt without knowing who he was or the atrocities he committed.

That said, complaining about the bailout still belies a misunderstanding of both politics and economics. Without it, governments the world over would have collapsed.
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2011, 09:54 AM
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Interesting, but it doesn't change how it appears. It still looks very much like the same kind of uneducated person who wears a Che Guevara tshirt without knowing who he was or the atrocities he committed.
That's a common misconception though. Sure there are the ones who pop in for the fun of it but the majority of the socialists/communists I've talked to have a very educated opinion based on wide research into the government, people and events concerning their protest. Taking things on a glance can be a very bad thing to do.
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  #20  
Old 10-10-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Interesting, but it doesn't change how it appears. It still looks very much like the same kind of uneducated person who wears a Che Guevara tshirt without knowing who he was or the atrocities he committed.

That said, complaining about the bailout still belies a misunderstanding of both politics and economics. Without it, governments the world over would have collapsed.

Yes because throwing even more money to the banks and corporations shows such a wonderful understanding of how politics and economics work. You know what, the BAILOUT was COMMUNIST!!! The government stepped in and helped, AHAH PANIC THE GOVERNMENT IS TAKING OVER!!!

Seriously if we live in such a "free market" the government should have just stood by and let the banks and other companies fail. For to long have the 1% been able to live with out consequences. Sure the world may have been plunged into a massive depression if governments had not stepped in. Or maybe the imminent collapse would have the Corporations that still have billions of dollars to $*#@ing wake up and see they might just need to do something and stop being such greedy bastards.
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  #21  
Old 10-10-2011, 12:55 PM
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I have 3 jobs, tuition fees but I have a bed every night and food every day.
Billions of people all around the world have no homes and hardly any food.

I am the 99%
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  #22  
Old 10-10-2011, 01:18 PM
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  #23  
Old 10-10-2011, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by iron_jones View Post
I have 3 jobs, tuition fees but I have a bed every night and food every day.
Billions of people all around the world have no homes and hardly any food.

I am the 99%
I have a full time job, school, and interning. With tuition and rent being what they are I am unable to move out of my parents home and with how things are going it doesn't look like I will be able to for a good 4-5 years. Well I could...but I would be living in my car, which tends to break down at times.
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  #24  
Old 10-10-2011, 03:26 PM
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I also do not really get the impression that OWS is communist. Certainly communists and anarchists are in the crowd, but basically the major theme is true democracy. These people are sick of their voices not be heard. A lot of them are no more socialist than the average or even conservative/mainstream German, who agrees with current policy that there is a higher tax for higher incomes, that education should be free to everyone and so on.
Or maybe it is just american conservative really. About 50 years ago, the difference between rich and poor int he US were much lower than now, the taxes on high incomes were much much higher and what happened at that time was the most happy and prosperous periods in US history - the 1960ies have been described as "peak happiness" by some.
Why? Because the system aimed for strenghtening the middle class with the money made by the upper class and by helping th lower class to get into that middle class segment. This was deeply eroded later.

But Re Communism:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isard View Post
Just like Soviet Russia, and Communist China (they've actually managed to get all the negatives of capitalism AND communism all blended into one)
...
Because it inevitably falls into fascist communism.
So as you said, these three "examples of communism" are not really communism. They may be capitalist communists just as the US now is a communist capitalism in a way. Both superpowers really blended the two concepts (publicly financed bailouts are pretty socialist really) into a mix that suited them best. Both have fascist, antidemocratic and totalitarian elements as well.

And that inevitability is something you'd have to prove when making such a statement. I doubt there is a conclusive logical chain leading to that.

Quote:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Oh - like another bailout because the crisis did not go away after the last one? and then another? and some money for the auto industry? and another bailout? This is what is happening and what OWS seems to oppose.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
...anarchism means anyone can break in, shoot you and take everything you want, and there are no police to stop them and no courts to punish them even if they get stopped.
What you describe is the absence of society, not anarchism. Anarchism means to be without rulers, not without rules. Of course a society can provide safety and a cooperative environment including laws and bringing order without depending on a class of rulers by self-organizing. This is what anarchism is, not the abolishing of all social cohaesion.

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Originally Posted by Cyvaris View Post
You know what, the BAILOUT was COMMUNIST!!! The government stepped in and helped...
Seriously if we live in such a "free market" the government should have just stood by and let the banks and other companies fail.
Exactly - Hey, I am suddenly actually FOR the free market. What a day

But as it is, the banks basically played the government/public/people in that they did risky business and cashed in on the profits but when it comes to losses, they externalized them to the general public by relying on government help under threat of economic instability. This is in a way just "playing the system", not the truely free market (which does not exist anyways)

Oh and of course without the bank bailout the banks would at least partially have gone bancrupt, it would have been a mess, economy would have collapsed to a degree. It would not have been nice, but the lessons would have been for the banks to keep an eye on safety instead of greed. And the governments job as I see it would have been to actually help the people who suffer from the bank failures - not by helping the banks, but by actually helping the people. And by the way: "its not over until its over" - that whole situation is not resolved yet - the crisis is not over, it was not averted by the bank bailouts - it was only delayed - there is still some things to come and what then? Another bailout? And another? Insanity? And who is to say that this will help? The financial ratings of the US and many Euro-countries are still dropping and dropping. In the end, there is the possibility that it still crashes, that the government put out billions of $$ to the banksand has nothing left to help the people. I read that already the government has budget cuts that decriminalize domestic violence - where is the money better spent on?

Oh and there are very knowledgdeable, intelligent activists in that movement. Scientists, Authors, Journalists, Academics - I would not want to call any of them to be not intelligent enough to uderstand what is going on. Frankly I would trust them a lot more than those who profit from the bailouts.
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  #25  
Old 10-10-2011, 05:20 PM
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Damn Aurora, you really know about this Well said.
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2011, 05:57 PM
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That other regimes have been worse doesn't mean ours is the best.

In the remote past the Arevaci already practiced common property for centuries until the Romans conquered the Iberian penninsula, and the people from the Gobi desert recognize no authority, and their civilization has survived for thousands of years. Going forward in time there have been several attempts on both collectivism and anarchism, in large and small scale, successful and unsuccessful.

Don't say we're stuck to a system because some others failed. That's cherrypicking.

Back to capitalism, I'm all for the idea behind OWS but not the practice. At this point changing the world won't happen with slogans and demonstrations.
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Last edited by ZenitYerkes; 10-10-2011 at 06:12 PM. Reason: read before replying, ugh.
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2011, 06:13 PM
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Probably true, Zenit - slogans and demonstrations may not be effective. If there are enough people and/or there is still some kind of democracy in place then they have a chance. Not for radical changes but for some concessions. But I feel that the people on the street there now will (have to) make their own experiences about what works and what does not and hopefully there will be an evolution leading to the way to really go for the goal

And thank you, Moco
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Last edited by auroraglacialis; 10-10-2011 at 07:20 PM.
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2011, 06:56 PM
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2011, 07:02 PM
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Apparently, the bankes on Wall Street posted "We are the 1%" signs out their windows.
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  #30  
Old 10-10-2011, 07:08 PM
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So far, what I've seen is a lot of hippies upset about the fact they are in deep debt because they went to an IVY League institute, majored in philosophy and can't find a job.

Not to say there aren't some good points being made.
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