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  #16  
Old 02-25-2014, 03:53 AM
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I'll revive this topic because today, I got an email from the chancellor that specifically addresses this issue.



This is especially relevant to me since my state is currently considering an amendment called SCA 5 that would repeal certain portions of Prop 209, specifically the parts prohibiting use of race or gender in admissions.
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  #17  
Old 02-25-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
That's why you provide for assistance to close the gap...
How would you actually... implement that, in practice? Every possible way I can think involves someone (whether that's unis, employers, or the government) either implicitly or explicitly giving minority groups some bonus, likely a visible one. In the case of a government, that would amount to money or tax breaks or something like that, which would raise an even louder objection than how things are arranged ATM.

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That's why you provide for assistance to close the gap, then accept the best from each group, not say "10% of your students must be illiterate working class disabled lesbian illegal immigrant ethnic minorities"
That's a consequence of the government hamfistedly imposing its will on corporations. If you have a better plan for how the government can get rid of imbalances in gender and race, please say so. However, "nothing" is not a viable option - we're not starting on equal grounding, so we're not going to get equality if we do nothing.

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by accepting that as not being the right action, people must accept that doing well will never be evenly distributed, and that to try and enforce otherwise is a Harrison Bergeron situation.
I don't think anyone's saying that everyone should be equal in all aspects. They're saying that people should start out on equal footing when it comes to gender, skin tone, disaiblity, and that sort of thing. Put another way, nobody's bothered if there's a correlation between intelligence and wealth - but there is a concern if there's a correlation between, say, skin tone, or gender, and wealth. (And, in the case of race, pointing to a correlation between race and intelligence as an "explanation" for a correlation between race and wealth is, itself, problematic and would make a lot of people skeptical as to the validity of how you're measuring intelligence.)
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:33 PM
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I don't think anyone's saying that everyone should be equal in all aspects. They're saying that people should start out on equal footing when it comes to gender, skin tone, disaiblity, and that sort of thing. Put another way, nobody's bothered if there's a correlation between intelligence and wealth - but there is a concern if there's a correlation between, say, skin tone, or gender, and wealth. (And, in the case of race, pointing to a correlation between race and intelligence as an "explanation" for a correlation between race and wealth is, itself, problematic and would make a lot of people skeptical as to the validity of how you're measuring intelligence.)
Well, I believe the disparity has more to do with socioeconomic situation rather than race. I genuinely believe that students from wealthier families have more access to resources that would lead to personal achievements. I'd be more willing to accept income-based assistance. Ones based on race or ethnicity doesn't sit well with me at all. I mean, if it's a cultural thing where Race Alpha places greater value on academics than Race Bravo, why should Race Alpha be capped? Simply put, I just don't agree with the notion of diversity for the sheer sake of diversity.
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  #19  
Old 02-25-2014, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
In the US, affirmative action is still popular as a means of "payback" for what are arguably crimes against humanity committed against both imported slave labor and native Americans. Politically conservative though I am, I'm not wholly against such "payback" in principle. Implementation is everything, though, and what made sense decades ago doesn't necessarily make sense today. The percentages should be revised constantly according to measured economic conditions for these ethnic groups.

I did not vote for Barack Obama, however there are good things about his Presidency. It certainly serves as a measure of significant progress in the civil rights movement, one without which people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be free to continue denying 50 years of forward momentum. Again, there is still progress to be made, but when these types speak, all I hear is that peasant from Monty Python's Holy Grail: "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" It was absolutely true at one point, but their unyielding and unchanging message of "we are victims" is what gives people a bad impression of affirmative action, and ultimately hinders the civil rights movement more than it helps.
You're so right, there are so many bills/laws that need to looked at and updated in the US. But most of the time they're just to lazy or sometimes there are groups that shut down any attempt to try and update said bills
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  #20  
Old 02-25-2014, 11:38 PM
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I'll never agree with AF Action. In my Eyes 'We'' as in anyone from around the world are Equal, and no one deserves to have advantages over someone else. In the end it comes down to money... most of the unfairness on this Planet always does. Jake sully once said. If You want a fare deal, You're on the wrong planet
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  #21  
Old 02-26-2014, 01:28 PM
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Well lookie here, I thought this thread was closed.

My gosh have I had more than my fill of this topic on Tumblr, but since nobody really listens to me there, I'm up for talking about it some more. I really thought all the SJW stuff was a joke, but wow, it's not! And the first comparison that sprung to my mind was with fundamental Christians, because when you're so deep in a belief that your logic is shaped by it, nothing can invalidate you.

That was a little bit off topic, my apologies, but I guess I wanted to say how much it makes me appreciate this totally civil discussion we're having right here. Anyway, what I've always thought is that asking for special treatment literally only because you're a minority either makes minorities seem weak, or makes minorities seem like they want revenge. The first of those is obviously wrong, and the second is mostly wrong, so when I was younger, I couldn't get why anybody would want stuff like that. My exception to this is, I do support AF by private entities to an extent for gay and trans people because they aren't adequately represented by law yet.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:48 PM
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It's easy to see why affirmative action would garner so much support; it's definitely true that many races here faced some disgusting discrimination and racism in the past, and some of that arguably linger to this day. How to compensate and overcome that dark history is a very murky issue, and frankly I don't know how to address that. In an ideal world, race (and sex) would be completely de-emphasized.
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  #23  
Old 03-30-2014, 09:52 AM
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The SCA 5 issue is done for now and thankfully it didn't pass the Assembly. Unfortunately, I saw some rather nasty side effects, like how some of my classmates and family members are saying that they oppose the affirmative action bill because "it doesn't help Asians." This is a rather disturbing mindset since it's frankly no different from, say, supporting the affirmative action as a Latino. Point is, if we are going to oppose affirmative action (SCA 5), it should be for the right reasons, not for the benefit of any particular ethnicity.

Another disappointing (but predicable) development is that the GOP tried to take advantage of this issue to sway more Asian Americans over to the Republican Party. The single-issue voting and partisan mindset that they are displaying are quite the scourges on American politics. I had to really sit down and talk to my mom to convince her not to do that. In fact, it's best not to be a partisan at all.

Moral of the story? American politics is full of sh*t, and I can't stand it.
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