What to make of the finienes of the world? - Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Tsamsiyu
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Default What to make of the finienes of the world?

What I mean by this (could think of the best title) is we have things like wars. The U.S. is flexing its arm in the middle east, and Africa and much of it is to protect the U.S.'s own interests. But, on the other hand, there are some pretty horrible people out there too. I mean Suddam was definitely doing some evil things, same as gudaffi, and other miscellaneous unknowns in parts of the world where the U.S. is involved. Ultimately, the U.S.'s own interests are never far out of thought, but ultimately as well, there were real people dying who were helped by the U.S. military being there. It's not a perfect solution, because it's not a perfect world. I think I'm starting to lean towards the war and peace: the same coin side. That there are bad things going on, and people do things to prevent those, but not always with the cleanest of intentions. That simply because of the finiteness and mortality of this world and its inhabitants, there's just a ****ed up mess.

Like two examples: Say you have a cancer research/awareness/help thing, and the main sponsor is a tobacco company. That's kind of counter intuitive. But it's sort of just the product of the world being less than perfect. There's not a correct choice in not letting the tobacco company get it's name all over the cancer awareness thing, and not having the campaign, or letting the tobacco company get its name all over the campaign, and having the campaign. It's just the way of the finite world.

Or, why the U.S. has so much oil interest in the middle east. There is plenty of oil off of the U.S. coast, and in Alaska to last a good while, but if we took that, it damages the environment. On the other hand, going to the middle east to flex our military might and secure our oil isn't so great either. And alternative energy isn't necessarily better either. Each alternative energy has its problems too, some simply aren't gonna work, some really aren't that clean all things considered.

How do you make of this? What do you make of this?

I'm starting to accept I can't change the rules, just make a few smiles here and there.
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It seems like everybody is moving forward. As if there is some final goal they can achieve and get to. I don't get it though. When I look around, it seems like I'm already there, and there is nothing left to do.

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Old 03-10-2012, 10:34 PM
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I'd like to respond to this, but I have no idea what you're talking about at all. I can't even make sense of the title What's "finienes"? Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 03-11-2012, 02:55 AM
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It's perfectly possible for national and humanity in general's interests to overlap - killing Bin Laden was a good example, while Iraq is more debatable (if it was truly humanitarian, then Iran is worse, not to mention North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and China, and even the various petty political squabbles that constantly go on when they could be solved and attention diverted to more important issues), but I think the interest is not just oil - it is keeping potential enemies in check - the US has the technology and resources to move past fossil fuels if it invested more into nuclear, but it is being far too slow, while China is ironically doing just that, while various dictators have made it very clear they want nothing less than to destroy everyone, and while the UN exists, it can easily be indecisive and bureaucratic, forming a committee to elect members for a committee to plan a committee to look into the possibility of forming a committee to do something about the issue before shelving it to make new political correctness quotas.

In the end, everyone has their own interests and the ability to look out for others. While the US certainly follows the former a lot, it still looks out for humanity as a whole in a way that most do not have the ability to. While Iraq may be full of problems, and questions over motivation, it's one dictatorship less, and potentially a friendly democratic state in a region filled with tinpot dictatorships. That counts for something. With Bin Laden dead along with most of al-qaeda's leadership, the threat they pose can genuinely be said to have been seriously reduced if not completely negated, and Pakistan's complicity in his hiding was exposed, which just goes to show how there's division, but ends do not have to be mutually exclusive, and in the end, no matter people's political persuasion, particularly to either extreme, the US' nominal values are good, and proven to work where others fail, and guarantee people rights. Whether they live up to them is another question, but if they apply those standards to others, they are more likely to be held to them themselves, which leaves everyone better off.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:08 PM
Tsamsiyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moco Loco View Post
I'd like to respond to this, but I have no idea what you're talking about at all. I can't even make sense of the title What's "finienes"? Maybe I'm missing something.
My bad Moco, yeah I screwed up the title, it's supposed to be finiteness of the world. Like "one life begins, another ends" or "for one to have, another has not." Like that things happen in this world, that aren't necessarily a product of good or evil, but more so a product of the mortality and finiteness, the world's inhabitants and its resources.

What I've been thinking about is like, well I'll use the U.S. for example cause I know most about them, the U.S. went to Iraq, to take down Suddam. Suddam was a dictator, and was corrupt, so in that respect, it's good somebody helped the Iraqis. But now, we have the U.S. is still there, and there's definitely an interest in getting oil out of it. But, on the other hand you have there was still violence in Iraq after Suddam fell. So, on one hand you have the U.S. is there for it's oil interests, but I don't think it's fair to say the U.S. has no interest in helping the Iraqis. I think it's a combination of interests, one a little greedy, one more noble. And these mixing of interests are just a product of the finite limited world.

On one hand, you have the U.S. is acting out of interest for oil, and that's one reason it's in the middle east. On the other hand you have the U.S. is helping prevent slaughter, and take down evil dictators, which is a good thing. And, it'd be great if diplomacy could solve this, but there's a point where soldiers are needed.

Mainly why I'm thinking about this is because now that I'm in college, I get a lot more liberal bias, and when I hear "Soldiers and war are evil, I can't believe we have them" or "We need to get rid of guns and stop crime" I can't help but think 'I admire your desire to better this world, and trust me, I want that as much as anybody else. But, I don't like seeing people fall for naive traps." What I mean is, I just read a study that in England somewhere, guns were banned, and the crimes of murder and rape rose just around 100%. And then in Ireland somewhere, guns were banned and confiscated, and murder rates rose 500% in 2 years in that area. I mean other factors could contribute, but I just don't like seeing people be naively led away. I wish we didn't have to have guns o fight, I wish we didn't have to fight, but we do. Diplomacy can't solve everything, and it's slow. But I don't like how some people seem to think anything of the nature of the U.S. invading, or guns etc is terribly evil, when to me it's just a product of the finite world.

Or, another example. The whole green movement. Like when people say using oil is evil. Well I wish we didn't have to use any. But fact of the matter is that other technologies just aren't quite there. Solar is about 5-17% efficiency for solar panels that can be mass produced. Hydrogen fuel cells just break down and require high maintainance costs. And, when these things are zero emissions, well it still takes resources to build them, like the rare earth mining in solar and wind. I wish we had zero emissions, probably more so than a lot of people, but I don't want to be naively thrown into something that isn't entirely true. Like for example toyota's recyclable aluminum hybrid shell. My professor said "Yeah it's recyclable and that's green and good, but the chemicals used to cut the aluminum, and amount of aluminum used to make the shell actually make it rather dangerous to the environment."

Or, even when I'm at dinner and someone says "You can't use so many paper towels, it's killing trees." I'll be thinking, well it's not quite so simple, because those paper towels are produced from trees grown by tree farms that specifically grow trees to make paper products. Yes, the fertilizer is probably bad, but it's not like these paper towels are from chopped down rainforests or anything.

And HNM, I would like to discuss this more, but today and tomorrow are finals week for me, so I'll have to get back.

But, what I'm saying is, I admire that people want to make a difference and help people, but I don't like seeing people be naively swept into movements or ideas that just aren't quite true. And I don't like being called a bad person because I think the military has done some good things, and because I respect soldiers, and because I think there's more to crime than people being able to own guns.

To me it's all just a product of the world being finite, and people needing to live. And so what I ask is how do you guys deal with this? And how do you get other people to understand it's not so simple as "Oh, I drive a hybrid, don't try to blame me for global warming."
__________________
"Pardon me, I wanna live in a fantasy"

"I wish I was a sacrifice but somehow still lived on"

It seems like everybody is moving forward. As if there is some final goal they can achieve and get to. I don't get it though. When I look around, it seems like I'm already there, and there is nothing left to do.

"You think you're so clever and classless and free, but you're still ****ing peasants as far as I can see."

I wish I could take just one hour of what I experience out in nature, wrap it in a box, put a bow on it, and start handing out to people

Nature has its own religion; gospel from the land

I know I was born and I know that I'll die; The in between is mine."
Reply With Quote
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