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Old 04-03-2012, 05:42 AM
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Default Bringing Back the Wisdom of the Moon Lodge!

I thought about this carefully, there were a number of ways I could go about it, in my usual style.


I could have put this in Spirituality, as I feel that's what I am really trying to offer with the sharing of this information, but I didn't!
I could have put this in Na'vi Culture, as a question if they would have such, but I didn't!
I could have put this in my Labyrinth Thread, which is off limits for comments, but I didn't.
I could have put this in Poetry, which limits criticism, but I didn't!
I have voluntairly, put it here, recognising, it will be probably end up being debated, and agree to let it be so!

I just wanted that to be noted ... at the outset!


So drawing upon Grandmother Spider energy, the teaching of wisdom, and some subjects that although not 'apparent' in Avatar, but realistically would be part of the Na'vi lifestyle, this is one of those.

NOTE: The actual debate is not meant to be about whether or not it 'would or would not be' in Na'vi Culture!

The debate I'm presuming is whether or not here on Earth the idea bringing back Moon Lodges is a good idea!

There is a movement, either known as Moon Lodges, or Red Tent Groups, that advocate that it is time to bring back these into our modern society.

The following quoted articles explains the premise of why many women feel there is a need for this.


"Bring back the menstrual hut.

Now, you may well be asking, why do women advocate a return to a practice that grew out of a fear and loathing of this most natural of women's functions, the monthly shedding of the unused lining of the womb? This attitude was accompanied by the fear and loathing of women in general, though which came first is a chicken and egg sort of question that can probably not be answered at this late date.

By way of answering, let us examine the phenomenon. Each month, when a woman's menses arrived, she left her usual home and chores and went to live in the hut. There, shunned by the rest of the village, she waited until her "curse" was past. The list of beliefs about the magical properties of menstruating women and their issue would probably fill a volume of the average encyclopedia. A menstruating woman could curdle milk or blight crops with a glance, despoil weapons and tools with a touch, and steal the strength and luck of any hunter or warrior foolish enough to have intercourse with her. It should not be a surprise that she was isolated and avoided.

But let us look at it from the woman's point of view. She was able to leave behind her children, her husband's family (with whom she probably lived), her usual obligations, and all the water-hauling, food-gathering, pig-tending, fuel-seeking tedium of her everyday life. She was not only free of her usual activities, she was forbidden from engaging in them. It is not recorded what sort of activities were permitted at the menstrual hut. I would surmise that no useful arts were permitted, since any craft engaged in would result in an item that was unclean and therefore unusable.

It was, in short, a rest. And what woman, whether hunter-gatherer, assembly line operator, or modern executive on her way up, could not use five days a month in which nothing was demanded of her, no one would bother her, and she could not be required to postpone her departure until everyone else's needs were taken care of? Furthermore, the revived menstrual hut will have new traditions and a new image. It will not be a place of shame, to which women slink and in which they wait in loneliness and disgrace, until they can purify themselves and come home to wait on their families again. It will be seen as a place of rest and retreat for some of the busiest people in a society: young women, who often have children to care for, household tasks to do and perhaps also a full-time outside job. It should be the place where women come as to a resort, to meet with their friends and leave their ordinary cares to others; where women can practice their menstrual magic, long despised but also recognized as potent, connected as it is with the engendering of human life.

The new menstrual hut will sit among the trees, surrounded by a high wall to keep intruders out. It will have places of quiet, where a woman may think, read, or just sit. It will have places to gather that are open to moonlight. It will have a pharmacy for those who suffer under the monthly ebb and flow of hormones. It will have few chores, just cooking and tidying up for oneseif and for each other – not for ... (older) children, husbands and in-laws. What else it has will be limited only be the imaginations of the women who come there.

People in the Western world are generally proud of the distance they have come from the cultures they once possessed, and of the habits which are still common in much of the rest of the world. However, as we have learned over the past 20 years, our vaunted progress is often illusory. Much that was good about the past has been frivolously abandoned merely because it was old, and when it was too late, people learned why their forbears had preserved their customs. By then, however, it is often too late. The ritual has been lost, the names of the gods forgotten, the hymns reduced to nursery rhymes.

In the case of the menstrual hut, however, we are fortunate. It can still be recovered."


There is ONE culture that honored, at least in traditional times, the mensus as sacred!


"The Moon lodge originates from the Native American Indian tradition. They honoured the moon time as sacred, it was treated with respect. The Moon Lodge is a Sacred Place for women to gather during their Bleeding Time. It was when we connected to Moon and Earth, Grandmother and Mother, and to each other. We were welcomed back into our communities, which eagerly awaited our return, to hear the wisdom we had gained.

In these modern, changing times, women are reconnecting with and recreating the Moon lodge Ceremonies. We are discovering our voices and our inherent role as Wisdom Keepers.

The information received as the menses begins in the clearest human picture from within the womb of the Great Mystery, of the unknown and our future. Among our dreaming peoples, the most prophetic dreams and visions were brought to the people through the Moon Lodge. In other words, the most useful information that can come to us comes from each of you women who use your moon time well.

For each of us who do not honour this time, much is lost, including the respect of others for our bleeding.


So Sisters!~ What do you think?

And Brothers (just remember to be respectful)!

Last edited by Mika; 04-03-2012 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:47 PM
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In speaking on reviving the moon lodge one must be very mindfull as this is a very sacred tradition for peoples of native ancestory, on avatar-forums there is a thread in matriarchy
and respecting women respecting women and matriarchy that would help people (especially men) understand this cultural tradition and custom, But only a valid Elder can answer questions on this practice respectfully, some questions ? Is there talk of reviving moon lodge as a practice for people of Non-native ancerstry or Native ancestry ? Native americans are very sensitive to the "stealing" of cermony and customs it happens all the time as new age religous groups grab aspects of native cermony and "mix" them in with all kinds of other practices as one can imagine this is disrespectful,and is often a cause of tension betwean the native community and our people so the question of reviving the moon lodge would need direct input from the native community,

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Old 04-09-2012, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mika View Post




Now, you may well be asking, why do women advocate a return to a practice that grew out of a fear and loathing of this most natural of women's functions, the monthly shedding of the unused lining of the womb?
So far yes, I am.

Quote:
By way of answering, let us examine the phenomenon. Each month, when a woman's menses arrived, she left her usual home and chores and went to live in the hut. There, shunned by the rest of the village, she waited until her "curse" was past. The list of beliefs about the magical properties of menstruating women and their issue would probably fill a volume of the average encyclopedia. A menstruating woman could curdle milk or blight crops with a glance, despoil weapons and tools with a touch, and steal the strength and luck of any hunter or warrior foolish enough to have intercourse with her. It should not be a surprise that she was isolated and avoided.
And that's not right, is it?

Quote:
But let us look at it from the woman's point of view. She was able to leave behind her children, her husband's family (with whom she probably lived), her usual obligations, and all the water-hauling, food-gathering, pig-tending, fuel-seeking tedium of her everyday life. She was not only free of her usual activities, she was forbidden from engaging in them. It is not recorded what sort of activities were permitted at the menstrual hut. I would surmise that no useful arts were permitted, since any craft engaged in would result in an item that was unclean and therefore unusable.
I'm not even going to continue with this.
All people have different places they can go to to "get away". This is just an excuse for women to get out of doing any work while they're menstruating.
But hey, nothing wrong with taking women back a few hundred years every now and then.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:28 PM
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I don't see how Native Americans can object if you wanted to implement this for the practical effects it has and discard most of the spirituality attached to it. However, excuse me for being cynical, but I don't think that's what you want to do.

Also, what iron jones said. This is quite clearly discrimination with respect to women, and you would need a really good reason for it to be implemented in our society. I'm not sure which "way" it is discriminatory, but even attempting to implement the idea poses a huge cost to businesses and men. (Not to mention pressure on women to not use it.)

As for the "sacred" role women play: we are all sexy, sexy Von Neumann machines.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by allroock123 View Post
Native americans are very sensitive to the "stealing" of cermony and customs it happens all the time as new age religous groups grab aspects of native cermony and "mix" them in with all kinds of other practices as one can imagine this is disrespectful,and is often a cause of tension betwean the native community and our people so the question of reviving the moon lodge would need direct input from the native community
Exactly. Cultural appropriation is bad. If someone truly can be said to understand a culture, then it's less of an issue, but not just 'oh, that's convenient, I'll have that' without any real understanding or care for its connotations or history. It's by no means always something negative, as indeed, it can improve understanding itself, but idealising and romanticising something tends to shape perceptions - how many people have seen portrayals of other groups, whether native Americans or similar, or even just other equally advanced nationalities, in a negative light? I'd say everyone, to whatever degree. Picking a practice born out of fear, superstition and division and trying to rebrand it as something 'good' is cultural appropriation, and I see no difference between this, and, to pick an extreme example, trying to find something positive to say about slavery, segregation, or human sacrifices, perhaps that they 'worked for them' as part of some ritual or meaning. Insisting that ANYONE 'can do no wrong' leads to problems.

Quote:
indeed there is a lot our people could learn from an understanding of the sacred role women play as the creator of life. something many men have great difficulty grasping.
Now that's sexist. They can't create offspring on their own, you know.

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Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
I don't see how Native Americans can object if you wanted to implement this for the practical effects it has and discard most of the spirituality attached to it. However, excuse me for being cynical, but I don't think that's what you want to do.

Also, what iron jones said. This is quite clearly discrimination with respect to women, and you would need a really good reason for it to be implemented in our society. I'm not sure which "way" it is discriminatory, but even attempting to implement the idea poses a huge cost to businesses and men. (Not to mention pressure on women to not use it.)

As for the "sacred" role women play: we are all sexy, sexy Von Neumann machines.
Yep. Major sexism.

This thread is a perfect example of how some groups get idealised, portrayed as being somehow perfect or unable to do any wrong, and a practice that if it has been suggested by any modern person would have been almost universally reviled as discriminatory, sexist, and condescending gets portrayed as 'good' because if some misguided attempt at cultural sensitivity or deliberate attempt at idealisation.
By all means, examine practices in historical context, but don't try to apply them to situations out of their context, and brining up something negative and going 'they were wise so it must be good!'. I find it ironic how so many people are so quick to jump onto 'I'M BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST' while espousing their own discrimination; 'affirmative action' is a classic.

By no means do I mean to imply that everyone who follows similar ideas is a 'plastic shaman' (a term I just read of while reading the previously linked page, albeit one which perfectly describes the point I was attempting to get across), or indeed, that every single idea is potentially negative (or indeed, potentially positive), just that idealising and romanticising anyone in such a manner to believe that they never did anything wrong or dubious, never made any mistakes and treated absolutely everyone completely fairly and were, all in all, perfect, is dangerous. It only takes a quick scan of some of the stereotypes, which every single person who has had any exposure at all to culture will be familiar with, to see the archetypical 'magical person / hidden knowledge' - Tvtropes even has a fairly well written page about it.

The term 'noble savage' is too often misused and thrown about at any portrayal of non-western people, as it seems from name to imply a derogatory regard, but it's the same archetype that is behind the honest belief that any kind of 'native people' have some kind of special understanding that anyone else is incapable of. It's often portrayed as the person using this being racist in some way, but I would certainly say that it's just as common for someone to actually genuinely believe it in an idealised manner.

I'm by no means a fan of Kubrick, but I think he was right when he said "Man isn't a noble savage, he's an ignoble savage. He is irrational, brutal, weak, silly, unable to be objective about anything where his own interests are involved — that about sums it up. I'm interested in the brutal and violent nature of man because it's a true picture of him. And any attempt to create social institutions on a false view of the nature of man is probably doomed to failure".
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by allroock123 View Post
In speaking on reviving the moon lodge one must be very mindfull as this is a very sacred tradition for peoples of native ancestory, on avatar-forums there is a thread in matriarchy
and respecting women respecting women and matriarchy that would help people (especially men) understand this cultural tradition and custom, But only a valid Elder can answer questions on this practice respectfully, some questions ? Is there talk of reviving moon lodge as a practice for people of Non-native ancerstry or Native ancestry ? Native americans are very sensitive to the "stealing" of cermony and customs it happens all the time as new age religous groups grab aspects of native cermony and "mix" them in with all kinds of other practices as one can imagine this is disrespectful,and is often a cause of tension betwean the native community and our people so the question of reviving the moon lodge would need direct input from the native community, indeed there is a lot our people could learn from an understanding of the sacred role women play as the creator of life. something many men have great difficulty grasping.
An important correction would be that 'Menstrual Huts' were part of many cultures, and it is the context of these other cultures the first article is also referencing, so it's not just Native American. In this case "cultural appropriation' which is indeed a very sensitive issue, is not applicable nor accurate.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:06 PM
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So far yes, I am.
Acutally the historical evidence, is that prehistorically, Menstrual Huts, were sacred places, established for and by women. Only over time, as women became disempowered, did the perceptions of Menstrual Huts as a negative thing happen.


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And that's not right, is it?
You are correct, no, there is no rational reason nor evidence, of such ridiculousness. That said, ever live with a women while she's PMSing .. where do you think the word 'Bitch' and Bitchy might have it's roots from!



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Originally Posted by iron_jones View Post
I'm not even going to continue with this.
All people have different places they can go to to "get away". This is just an excuse for women to get out of doing any work while they're menstruating.
But hey, nothing wrong with taking women back a few hundred years every now and then.
I'm not disagreeing, I think 'everyone' irregardless of gender, needs time out to gather with their peers, or alone, such as 'fishing trips' etc. Its a significant bonding time, for either gender, and helps put life in perspective.

As to the second part ... **** ***! It's exactly that type of 'bullsh*t* by men in not understanding that PMS is real, is physical, and not a blooming excuse. You really think any female wants cramps, bloating, tension or migrane headaches, and any other innumerable complaints that go with it .. YOU REALLY THINK ... we are just make that up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:10 PM
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This is quite clearly discrimination with respect to women, and you would need a really good reason for it to be implemented in our society. I'm not sure which "way" it is discriminatory, but even attempting to implement the idea poses a huge cost to businesses and men. (Not to mention pressure on women to not use it.)
Once again it comes back to revaluing what's important in our society .. Economics .... or overall Well-Being!
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:20 PM
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As to HNM ..

You scream 'sexist' at everything, so there's not way to logically debate women's issues with you!

We are all equal .. and equivillant, have value and worth. I agree one is no more or less important, nor their needs, than the other. Intellectually, Spiritually, Mentally, Emotionaly, etc. There is no distinct differences.

And yes it is correct to correct that both Men and Women are the creators, it can't happen without the conjoining!

BUT our bodies our different, Medically and Scientifically, that's a fact! No matter how hard I try, I'm never going to understand the senstive issues that come from having 'gear' or a prostate, or Tetosterone (yes I know women have it too, you know what I mean) and all that other stuff! I don't know what it's like to be a guy, and any of the hormonal complications that come with that!

But I do know a female body, and so does every other female, therefore it's US that are raising our awareness of taking care of ourselves, more wholistically, this is given as one way 'woman' are looking to find ways to do that for themselves.

It's symbolic of recognising the need to honor our role as procreators, and the 'stresses' and health issues that arise from that process. Society today is out of balance, the expectations on woman, evern woman in their child-bearing years, has dramatically increased, and so to has women's health issues. Its a 'crisis' that we can't ignore anymore. The Scientific Evididence points to that more 'traditional' societal groups, even though they may exist in very seeming backwards or discriminating life-styles, actually have 'healthier' bodies, than those of us women in 'Westernized Countries'. It's hard not then to ask the questions, as women, what do they have, are doing, that we aren't!
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:50 PM
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In other words, you mean that repeating a mantra won't work against someone who considers actual fact, tendencies and other points in their argument? That's nice to hear.

Saying "women's issues" is, IMHO sexist in itself, and flatly contradicts the next line about equality, which I would tend to agree with (although intellectually is taking it a bit far in my opinion, but that's another context entirely). I'd have the same reaction if someone decided to talk about "men's issues" in such a manner.

OF COURSE there are biological differences, but is that a case for discrimination? No; not any more than discriminating for/against short people, people with dark hair or brown eyes. Neither may know what it's like 'to be' the other per se, but they can still be aware of differences, but similarities as well, because no one individual will ever be typical or normal. That said, I think female issues are far better documented and taught - why is it that whenever a woman makes even a slight accusation of sexual assault, everyone jumps into ultra-serious mode to try and find whoever did it, treating it as seriously as they should, yet if a man does, he's laughed at and told to get over it? Why is it that there is such a disparity in time given off work, in treatment in courts and over child custody? Why are men conscripted and not women in EVERY country that uses conscripts except for one? Why are testicular and prostrate cancers so low in awareness, with so few charities and support organisations compared to ones more common in women? Why is it that men are fair game in comedy and advertising as being incompetent or unable to cope, while any rare similar portray of women immediately gets jumped on? Why are there so many groups, charities, etc, that exclusively deal with women but next to none for men?
There's no medical difference that justifies it. There's no psychological or physical difference. It's a case of discrimination, giving people who campaign for it extra rights over others. OF course, the archetypical attempt at justification is 'history', yet this retroactive overcompensation is found almost nowhere else - the vast majority of people don't hate Germany and Japan for the second world war, or every single person of any political persuasion based on extremists from that category.

If women need 'their role honoured' 'as procreators', what about men as providers, protectors, facilitators, enablers, support, and everything else? Something tells me that wouldn't be acceptable to people who demand something special for their own gender, from either side. It's all about getting something special over other people.
Women are just as capable of working as men, it is just that many elect not to as their first priority, or choose differing fields.

This site is an illuminating read on marriage and the associated politics, particularly on work and finances. It's not possible to demand things both ways, to demand equal treatment and special treatment, especially when the later only goes one way. Differing treatment is typically fine as long as they can be considered equal and even-handed, but special treatment is not. Indeed, demanding special treatment can be seen as demeaning to those who demand it, because they are insinuating that they can't keep up with others and need to be compensated accordingly.

The entire concept is rooted in superstition, ignorance, fear, and the treatment of others as little more than chattel. To romanticise it, to re-portray it as a 'good thing'; to make it a privilege gained at the expense of others is insulting to EVERYONE. It flies in the face of your own comment about equality and importance, which, as I can't stress enough, on principle I agree with.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika View Post
Once again it comes back to revaluing what's important in our society .. Economics .... or overall Well-Being!
...yet you jumped to finance, not Clarke. Do you not understand that cost can mean something different to monetary? What about the increased asymmetry of the workload, or the impact on relegating 50% of the population to 'second class'? What about the imbalance of provision of services and goods, because there is by no means equal numbers in the vast majority of fields? What about the precedent of separation, of promotion of groups above others? Even if some of that has knock-on financial effect, those are completely ancillary.

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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
I'm not disagreeing, I think 'everyone' irregardless of gender, needs time out to gather with their peers, or alone, such as 'fishing trips' etc. Its a significant bonding time, for either gender, and helps put life in perspective.
...then why not say that, rather than frame it in terms and a bad historical practice so as to privilege only some?

I can't really stress this enough; that is something entirely different, and fits in EXACTLY with what I was saying earlier, "Differing treatment is typically fine as long as they can be considered equal and even-handed, but special treatment is not.".


Quote:
As to the second part ... **** ***! It's exactly that type of 'bullsh*t* by men in not understanding that PMS is real, is physical, and not a blooming excuse. You really think any female wants cramps, bloating, tension or migrane headaches, and any other innumerable complaints that go with it .. YOU REALLY THINK ... we are just make that up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody made any such claim.
Excessive use of exclamation points doesn't change that; neither does a symptom description. As you said, it's not something men go through, but neither do you have any insight into what there is.... and that, of course is fine, as long as it is respected by BOTH parties. Iron_jones often attempts to be inflammatory for no good reason, and has sometimes closely escaped consequences, but here had a legitimate point that I have also raised; that wanting to bring back something that can be considered negative to EVERYONE as 'a good thing' belittles everyone, while doing so out of some kind of belief in 'they were wise' is cultural appropriation mixed with stereotypical beliefs of cultures.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
An important correction would be that 'Menstrual Huts' were part of many cultures, and it is the context of these other cultures the first article is also referencing, so it's not just Native American. In this case "cultural appropriation' which is indeed a very sensitive issue, is not applicable nor accurate.
So if you don't want to appropriate the cultural/mythological meaning of it then... the idea boils down to women getting a holiday because of PMS?

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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
Acutally the historical evidence, is that prehistorically, Menstrual Huts, were sacred places, established for and by women. Only over time, as women became disempowered, did the perceptions of Menstrual Huts as a negative thing happen.
AFAIK, there has been no culture in history that initially considered the hut a good thing, and then moved onto considering it a bad thing. You're getting such a dissonant view because you're trying to make two different cultures' histories intersect in a way that never actually happened in history.

Quote:
I'm not disagreeing, I think 'everyone' irregardless of gender, needs time out to gather with their peers, or alone, such as 'fishing trips' etc. Its a significant bonding time, for either gender, and helps put life in perspective.
What HNM said - you should've said this. The OP is entirely one-sided in favour of women.

Quote:
As to the second part ... **** ***! It's exactly that type of 'bullsh*t* by men in not understanding that PMS is real, is physical, and not a blooming excuse. You really think any female wants cramps, bloating, tension or migrane headaches, and any other innumerable complaints that go with it .. YOU REALLY THINK ... we are just make that up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In all other cases where our bodies do things we don't want to happen, we change it so that it works how we want. That option is available, and I understand a lot of women use it for precisely the reasons you've said.

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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
Once again it comes back to revaluing what's important in our society .. Economics .... or overall Well-Being!
I do not want to work more because your biology is screwing you over.

Quote:
We are all equal .. and equivillant, have value and worth. I agree one is no more or less important, nor their needs, than the other. Intellectually, Spiritually, Mentally, Emotionaly, etc. There is no distinct differences.
[...]
BUT our bodies our different, Medically and Scientifically, that's a fact! No matter how hard I try, I'm never going to understand the senstive issues that come from having 'gear' or a prostate, or Tetosterone (yes I know women have it too, you know what I mean) and all that other stuff! I don't know what it's like to be a guy, and any of the hormonal complications that come with that!
Check out the bold. Haven't you just contradicted yourself?

Also, as a guy, I can tell you that there pretty much aren't any. My biochemistry remains pretty much static over years, if not decades. There is a clear inequality going on here, and you seem to have got the short end of the stick. Also, I can't really see where you want to go with this. Either PMS isn't an issue, in which case there's nothing to complain about, or it is an issue. If it is an issue, why don't you fix the issue instead of dancing around it?

Quote:
It's symbolic of recognising the need to honor our role as procreators...
Since we're running on so much opinion here already, I'll just pipe in and say that I don't want to honour anybody's role as a procreator, for two reasons:

Firstly, defined roles in general aren't helpful in a society as liquid as ours needs to be. It's not the case any more that a son can be expected to inherit his father's job - in fact, over the period of the Industrial Revolution, chances are the father's job wouldn't exist by the time the son needed it! Going back to gender terms, women and men shouldn't have roles to pick from - people should have aspirations, and have support to achieve those aspirations regardless of whether or not it's been done before or whether or not there are "role models." Having defined "roles" is simply too restricting in an environment that changes from decade to decade, instead of century to century.

Secondly, children aren't cool anymore! There are too many of us already! I don't want to honour anybody making it even harder for the 7,000,000,000 people already existing on this planet, most of whom still live in abject poverty. IMO, it makes far more sense to honour the scientists, engineers, politicians, (as much as it annoys me to say so) etc. that help alleviate that problem, and all the others that people face. I know that there is sexism in both STEM fields and politics, but the solution to that is get rid of the sexist attitudes, not go along with them. We need to correct our existing problems (food shortages, religious war, etc, etc) without creating new ones or exacerbating the existing ones along the way.

(Also, don't misinterpret that last paragraph; not all scientists, politicians, etc, are worthy of being honoured, but the ones that are are doing a far more effective job than most other people.)
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:30 AM
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... and guys .. whom need to go on and on and on and on with their opinion and disertations ... wonder why women would want a week away to themselves?

If you want to debate with me, than you all need to learn to talk less, and stick to your point of discussion with me .. quit backing each other up and defending each other!

My style .. my capacity is to be able to talk to individual's indvidually, ok, it's why I don't resond well on these debates, is simply because I 'can't' its way too much coming at me, I have to have things broken down into bite sizes, this has nothing to with gender, btw.

So either you're in this for you're own ego's, OR you actually interested in a serious discussion on the concept! IF it's the second, then you will be accomodating, if it's the first, then you'll just tear this to shreds, just for the sake of it!

A serious discussion or comments by any of you, would have started your responses with acknowledgement and then raise your 'personal' thoughts, meaning as it apply's to you specific.

But instead, you want to make 'statement's', and lecture

This is not University, this is real life, and in real life, dissertations don't/won't work to address the issues. Not one single women out there, who want's to see these, is going to be in the least bit swayed by your educated perspectives.

Reason, is not long winded, it is short and pointent, it does not need to argue or debate, or fight for it's opinions. Reason, Rational, and Logic, speak softly, quietly, with few words, because it's self-evident!
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2012, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika View Post

As to the second part ... **** ***! It's exactly that type of 'bullsh*t* by men in not understanding that PMS is real, is physical, and not a blooming excuse. You really think any female wants cramps, bloating, tension or migrane headaches, and any other innumerable complaints that go with it .. YOU REALLY THINK ... we are just make that up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your great amount of rage does not help this at all.

Yeah yeah, blah blah blah men are evil and we don't believe that PMS is real.
I could've sworn you WANTED cramps and all the related symptoms of PMS.

I don't consider PMS to be an excuse to be bitchy. I've dated a girl who decided not to be bitchy when she was menstruating. And if she started getting "bitchy" at nothing she would apologize and I would understand.

Maybe I'm wrong, but no one should have a free card to just be a nagging bitch. Not men, not women, no one.

I understand that PMS is very real and no, I don't grasp how hard or painful it may be to go through because I am not a female. But all this idea would do is teach us that you go to your hut every month because Menstruating isn't normal. It's something to be shunned. it's something that women can't handle because they need time while on their period.

That's my take on it, at least.
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2012, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mika View Post
... and guys .. whom need to go on and on and on and on with their opinion and disertations ... wonder why women would want a week away to themselves?
I didn't realize there was a law keeping women from going on vacation.

Quote:
If you want to debate with me, than you all need to learn to talk less, and stick to your point of discussion with me .. quit backing each other up and defending each other!
Speak for yourself about the talking less part.
Seriously? I'm not allowed to agree with anyone that disagrees with you? I bet you win a lot of debates.

Quote:
A serious discussion or comments by any of you, would have started your responses with acknowledgement and then raise your 'personal' thoughts, meaning as it apply's to you specific.

But instead, you want to make 'statement's', and lecture
"If you don't disagree with me how I want you to, then it's not fair and you're not debating properly"

Quote:
This is not University, this is real life, and in real life, dissertations don't/won't work to address the issues. Not one single women out there, who want's to see these, is going to be in the least bit swayed by your educated perspectives.
I could've sworn that I went to university to learn how to explain myself and give my view points in an organized and clear way.
Let's be honest, you're not going to be swayed by anyone here, but we discuss it anyways.

Just say it. "Don't point out what you think is wrong with this"

You put this in the "debate" section, why would we all garnish this with bacon and dance??
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  #15  
Old 04-10-2012, 03:51 AM
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Because the form of 'debating' i'm used too, is that kind that is looking for mutal understanding and the crux of the issues, and thereby the possible realistic solutions.

Community Development Groups, Organizations, etc, debate all the time, they aren't interested in forwarding their single agenda views, (at least not the ones I work with). They don't assume right out, they have the definitite voice or answer or perspective.

When someone presents a synopsis, the first things we do as proffesionals is ascertain the reasons for the proposal in the first place. Why does this group of individauls, feel or think this way. We keep our own world view opinions out of it. First we try to understand how the 'other side' sees it, without assumptions, bias, or judgements.

From that point forward the discussing indivuals debate the merits or deterrents on the idea, or proposal, or articulation, in a way that isn't forceful, arguementative, or ego opinionated. Yes personal perspectives come into play, and are brought forth, but always in consideration, that its not about what they think that's important, rather, just that this is their thought process, at those moments.

Within that framework, comes the larger picture, both of understanding the original point, but now conceptualizing a broader perspective, that is not trying to undermine, nor discount. Rather the 'spirit' of the issue is what becomes paramount, the core or crux underneath. Once that is understood, than the points that everyone raises, in context, is for example in this case, 'groups of women are feeling the need for a more wholistic approach to care-taking of themselves, during their mensus times, that they are not presently finding in today's society'. After that the issue is no longer about Menstrual Huts or not, but rather, Well-being of ALL in general, and why isn't that feeling of Well Being, in our modern times present!

When people discuss things that way, I'm completely calm, rational, logical, and competent and can add value to the discussion, as evident!

So the issue is the form of what others call debating, is not what I call debating, but arguing, and if you're going to argue, then I'm going to give emotional responses back!

When we quit arguing, then we can start debating!

Last edited by Mika; 04-10-2012 at 03:53 AM.
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