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  #16  
Old 05-03-2012, 02:00 PM
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I think that Women CAN achieve that level of ecological maturity, though due to their upbringing. I believe that women raised in a Native environment have a much easier job of it. The woman who is sharing our 19 anniversary with me today and I are both part Native American, and we were both raised immersed in the culture, but in families that had no problem with alcohol, so it is VERY easy for us to "keep it real" in day to day life. Neither one of us would even be considered "pretty" by society's standards, yet because of our feelings about, and actions while upon, the wheel of life, make each of us beautiful beyond words to each other, not because of physical appearance, but because of who we are. That is not an unreachable goal for people as appearance is, and if people strive to emulate THOSE qualities of the character of Ni'tiri, they would remove a lot of stress in their lives.
Niri Te

Last edited by Niri Te; 05-03-2012 at 02:12 PM.
  #17  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
But is it not at least somewhat manipulative to use special geometrical features to trigger some inherent instinctive pattern for perceiving beauty? Its little like manufacturing a lure for fish that exaggerate the sorts of movement that triggers reflexes in the fish that makes it attack. In commercials and other contexts these beautiful, artificial faces can perhaps manipulate us to buy things, or to support things we should not have supported without them. At least it is some kind of risk. And can it not be some risk that we loose ourselves in dreams of unobtainable and unrealistic beauty, while we miss out on the real beauty out there in the world?

At the same thing maybe these images can make women trying to manipulate themselvws (plastic surgery and other stuff) just to be like the computer generated faces in order to be more attractive. Is it not something of a danger in that?
The thing is, it doesn't trigger anything, nor would men cream their khakis when they see an image like that. Nothing is really manufactured because there's already pre-determined features that can make one beautiful. Like I said, there's a "golden ratio" when it comes to facial symmetry. No one's going to have to have the latest Swiffer vacuum (Which looks pretty bad ass) just because a symmetrical, beautiful woman told us to buy it. Well, maybe some men might, but I hope not.
If women want plastic surgery to be more symmetrical, they should be able to do so. That goes for men as well. It's good to encourage an environment where no one is judged by their physical appearance, but let's be honest, that will never happen. Ever. We live (in North America at least) in a world where men usually gain recognition and status through wealth, and women who are beautiful are usually much more powerful. And it all goes back to having sex (though that's something for a different thread).

The "beautiful Miss Germany" image, though symmetrical and appealing, I'm sure most wouldn't go "goo-goo eyes" over a woman who looked exactly like that. She's pleasing to the eyes, yes, but there's nothing particularly ravishing. Every man (I think) has certain preferences that they look for, usually. I like when a girl has a small but visible scar on her face, I have a god friend who likes women with freckles and a friend who loves it when women have gauged ears, the bigger the plugs the better.
So I don't really things like images of symmetrical women can influence our desires or our opinions. I think.
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  #18  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:27 PM
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And one do not have to be a troll because one sometimes can see through the fantasy and see the reality behind it.
Educate yourself.

Concern troll - RationalWiki

You are coming off as one.
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  #19  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
But is it not at least somewhat manipulative to use special geometrical features to trigger some inherent instinctive pattern for perceiving beauty?


That is impossible, because people don't react the same way to the same stimuli. There ARE individuals who are generally/widely considered attractive and ones who are widely considered unattractive. Neither is universal.

Quote:
In commercials and other contexts these beautiful, artificial faces can perhaps manipulate us to buy things, or to support things we should not have supported without them.
No, they can't (or, rather, no more than any other method of advertising), otherwise everyone would be constantly buying every advertised item. Advertising is highly competitive due to its nature, and the time and resources spend on research are extreme - if there was some magic formula, it would be literally omnipresent. On the other hand, production of images is generally cheaper, easier, and faster turnaround than using live models, the only discrepancy.

Quote:
At least it is some kind of risk. And can it not be some risk that we loose ourselves in dreams of unobtainable and unrealistic beauty, while we miss out on the real beauty out there in the world?
People do that anyway. Are you trying to imply that people DON'T fantasise about foo random celebrity/person they know/random person they walk past? If so, you have abandoned all pretence of having an actual point and this can be seen as nothing more than concern trolling.

Quote:
At the same thing maybe these images can make women trying to manipulate themselvws (plastic surgery and other stuff) just to be like the computer generated faces in order to be more attractive. Is it not something of a danger in that?
So you oppose plastic surgery? Wow. What next, forcing everyone to not show their faces in public because some people are better looking than others? Becoming the Handicapper General from Harrison Bergeron?
If someone wants to seek an ideal in appearance (or any other respect), it's their right and prerogative to.
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  #20  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
Yes, i was talking more in general about computer generated women and beauty. When it concerns Neytiri, i agree that her beauty not only sits in her looks but in her personality. Still one must not forget that also her personality is a result of a combination of computer image, acting and script writing. She is not real, and it seems that several people think that no, or few, real women can live up to her standards. One can wonder why a fictionary person is considered so superior to real women, in several aspects.
Ada Wong of the Resident Evil series is an attractive woman and CG too. But do i have to look out for a girl that looks and act like she does? No, because its a Game. And there are a lot of Games and movies out who wouldn't work without any kind of beauty and all that... in case of Avatar, especially Neytiri, stop wasting time and words about some researchcrap... Thats not the reason why iam at ToS!

Last edited by IcanSee; 05-03-2012 at 10:25 PM.
  #21  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:40 AM
Taronyu
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Originally Posted by iron_jones View Post
The thing is, it doesn't trigger anything, nor would men cream their khakis when they see an image like that. Nothing is really manufactured because there's already pre-determined features that can make one beautiful. Like I said, there's a "golden ratio" when it comes to facial symmetry. No one's going to have to have the latest Swiffer vacuum (Which looks pretty bad ass) just because a symmetrical, beautiful woman told us to buy it.
Still many companies and their marketing divisions seems to think so. How many times have they not tried to sell all sorts of things by having beautiful looking women in commercials? And if you manage to enhance the features that we perceive as beautiful further by computer imaging, then why could that not be used to even sell more products?

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Originally Posted by iron_jones View Post
Well, maybe some men might, but I hope not.
If women want plastic surgery to be more symmetrical, they should be able to do so. That goes for men as well. It's good to encourage an environment where no one is judged by their physical appearance, but let's be honest, that will never happen. Ever. We live (in North America at least) in a world where men usually gain recognition and status through wealth, and women who are beautiful are usually much more powerful. And it all goes back to having sex (though that's something for a different thread).
well, I suppose you are right, but perhaps one at least should try to curb the most excessive tendencies of promoting specific ideals of beauty. After all eating disorders (anorexia and similar) and other fixations about weight and looks is a growing health problem in the industrial world and it costs a lot of suffering and resources.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Educate yourself.

Concern troll - RationalWiki

You are coming off as one.
You read to much into my posts. I just like to see different sides of a subject and discuss different apects of it.

Sometimes it seems that you are too intolerant and go berserk as soon as anyone questions some aspect of your favourite fantasy world.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
That is impossible, because people don't react the same way to the same stimuli. There ARE individuals who are generally/widely considered attractive and ones who are widely considered unattractive. Neither is universal.
So why is there at all a whole industry (marketing, commecials and similar) that make a living on triggering our instincts by showing us different kinds of stimuli, among them pictures of people that have features that at least many people in our culture find rather attractive? Behavioral psychology do actually show that there are features that triggers certain responses in us. Also different companies spend millions to find the right triggers to use in marketing.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
No, they can't (or, rather, no more than any other method of advertising), otherwise everyone would be constantly buying every advertised item. Advertising is highly competitive due to its nature, and the time and resources spend on research are extreme - if there was some magic formula, it would be literally omnipresent. On the other hand, production of images is generally cheaper, easier, and faster turnaround than using live models, the only discrepancy.
Noone talks about a magic formula, but still there are things that are known to trigger our emotions and desires. And they are frequently used.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
People do that anyway. Are you trying to imply that people DON'T fantasise about foo random celebrity/person they know/random person they walk past? If so, you have abandoned all pretence of having an actual point and this can be seen as nothing more than concern trolling.
Yes, obviously many people loose themselves in all sorts of dreams. Some do it in such a degree that they forget the real world, they become passive instead of trying to actively make the real world a better place.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
That So you oppose plastic surgery? Wow. What next, forcing everyone to not show their faces in public because some people are better looking than others? Becoming the Handicapper General from Harrison Bergeron?
If someone wants to seek an ideal in appearance (or any other respect), it's their right and prerogative to.
As I mentioned before, to hysterically try to conform to some unobtainable ideal of beauty have distorted the minds of many young people (especially girls) leading to different disorders (as for example anorexia) causing a lot of suffering in our society.

But that perhaps is of no consequence as long as some company can make a lot of money profiting from it?
  #22  
Old 05-05-2012, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
So why is there at all a whole industry (marketing, commecials and similar) that make a living on triggering our instincts by showing us different kinds of stimuli, among them pictures of people that have features that at least many people in our culture find rather attractive? Behavioral psychology do actually show that there are features that triggers certain responses in us. Also different companies spend millions to find the right triggers to use in marketing.
Because there is no magic method. If there was, a while industry would be unnecessary. You just answered your own question

Quote:
Noone talks about a magic formula, but still there are things that are known to trigger our emotions and desires. And they are frequently used.
That isn't magic. It doesn't guarantee anything, and can be done with humans too.

Quote:
Yes, obviously many people loose themselves in all sorts of dreams. Some do it in such a degree that they forget the real world, they become passive instead of trying to actively make the real world a better place.
...and? That's their prerogative.

Quote:
As I mentioned before, to hysterically try to conform to some unobtainable ideal of beauty have distorted the minds of many young people (especially girls) leading to different disorders (as for example anorexia) causing a lot of suffering in our society.
That's their fault. People can still aspire to anything they like and should do so without a wannabe Handicapper General telling them they can't.
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  #23  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:23 AM
Taronyu
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Because there is no magic method. If there was, a while industry would be unnecessary. You just answered your own question
As I said noone said anything about magic, but still there are a lot of tricks to trigger different kind of psycological responses in us. If there were no such things commercials would not be profitable.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
...and? That's their prerogative.
Passive citizens can be a danger ofr society since many of them just go along with all sorts of bad things without trying to fight them. Democracy is dependent on active, well informed citizens. Passive or uninformed citizens can lead us very wrong.

Many people can obviously not see the connections between their own actions and the way the world looks like today.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
That's their fault. People can still aspire to anything they like and should do so without a wannabe Handicapper General telling them they can't.
Unfortunately the commercial messages telling us how we shall look and what is beautiful or not beautiful actually cost many lives (eating disorders can be deadly) and a lot of suffering among young gullible people. Many of these young people are not mature enough to withstand the tempest of messages that tell them how they must look or act to be accepted.
  #24  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Tsamsiyu
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The stupidity of this thread is beyond words.

Being passive isn't dangerous, being ignorant is.
  #25  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:04 AM
Taronyu
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Originally Posted by Aquaplant View Post
The stupidity of this thread is beyond words.

Being passive isn't dangerous, being ignorant is.
Well, many times ignorance leads to passivity (and also the other way around). And being passive means that you many times just go on consuming and living without actively making informed choices. And such consumption in its turn contributes to the destruction of our world.

We live in such an interconnected world that everything we do, or not do, have implications for our world.
  #26  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
Well, many times ignorance leads to passivity (and also the other way around). And being passive means that you many times just go on consuming and living without actively making informed choices. And such consumption in its turn contributes to the destruction of our world.
It's useless to fight a loosing battle, and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you can stop trying.

Quote:
We live in such an interconnected world that everything we do, or not do, have implications for our world.
This is certainly true, but again, there's hardly any alternatives to be had when it comes to certain necessary choices.


Anyhow, the main issue I have with this thread is the whole 'nobody wants real women anymore' nonsense. Then again I guess it can be true to a certain extent, but the reasons behind that are much more elaborate than the stuff you go on about.
  #27  
Old 05-07-2012, 11:45 AM
Taronyu
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Originally Posted by Aquaplant View Post
It's useless to fight a loosing battle, and the sooner you realize this, the sooner you can stop trying.
Well, then one can perhaps just sit down, turn on the screen and sit there until the end of days.

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Originally Posted by Aquaplant View Post
This is certainly true, but again, there's hardly any alternatives to be had when it comes to certain necessary choices. .
Hopefully there can still be different choices if one actively pursues them.

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Originally Posted by Aquaplant View Post
Anyhow, the main issue I have with this thread is the whole 'nobody wants real women anymore' nonsense. Then again I guess it can be true to a certain extent, but the reasons behind that are much more elaborate than the stuff you go on about. .
The main issue is rather that many women (and especially young girls) believe that they must live up to some unrealistic standard of beauty. That causes, in the worst cases psychological disorders that sometimes can be dangerous (as anorexia). And there are some guys that contribute to the mess by demanding that girls must comply to that standard.
  #28  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:11 PM
Tsamsiyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
The main issue is rather that many women (and especially young girls) believe that they must live up to some unrealistic standard of beauty. That causes, in the worst cases psychological disorders that sometimes can be dangerous (as anorexia). And there are some guys that contribute to the mess by demanding that girls must comply to that standard.
What does this have to do with anything?

People choose to do and believe whatever they want, and that is not fault of anyone else.
  #29  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:15 PM
Taronyu
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Originally Posted by Aquaplant View Post
What does this have to do with anything?

People choose to do and believe whatever they want, and that is not fault of anyone else.
Well, anorexy and similar conditions is a rather big health problems that affect many young people. It causes suffering and also drains resources that could be spent on other things.

And peoples choices are not always their own. Many young people are so easily affected and manipulated so it ought to cause some concern what we brainwash them into.
  #30  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:18 PM
Tsamsiyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpaintednavi View Post
Well, anorexy and similar conditions is a rather big health problems that affect many young people. It causes suffering and also drains resources that could be spent on other things.

And peoples choices are not always their own. Many young people are so easily affected and manipulated so it ought to cause some concern what we brainwash them into.
I guess I don't have to wonder anymore why people don't take you seriously.
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