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Old 04-13-2010, 05:53 PM
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Default Hot Tea Or Cold Tea?

Some people say the "Tea Party" is nothing but a bunch of genteel people with "new" ideas about how the country should be run. Others think it is getting completely out of hand, a la this.

While what they're doing is legal as far as I can tell, their logic is contorted at best. George W. Bush's policies continue to this day in the form of warrant-less wiretapping, FISA court bypasses, extraordinary rendition and "the War on Terrorism" in general. Somehow, these people seem to be more riled up by a health-care bill than anything else.

I just see this as extraordinarily hypocritical. Where were they when the PATRIOT ACT passed? The federal government could demand to see, for example, what books you were checking out of the library (on the grounds that they might find potential lone-wolf terrorists through their reading habits) and your librarian couldn't even say whether the feds had been by or not. In other words, you cannot contest the surveillance, lawful or not, because you cannot prove it happened. I feel like that is far more invasive than any health-care bill.

As long as they just parade around like five-year-olds playing army I don't care--they're within their rights (if a bit creepy to me). But as soon as they incite violence or harm someone, God help them when the real Army comes in and kicks their butts with all that expensive war material we've been buying.

If it makes them feel "safer," fine, but if the implication is that the government needs to be removed through force, that's a whole other story. I find it interesting that there has been a large (at least in terms of reports) uptick in "anti-government" and "gov needs to go" rhetoric now, as opposed to earlier, and that many of these people complain Obama hasn't ended some of Bush's policies. Policies are, just like the institutions they represent, hard to change. Sometimes, they might be useful as distasteful as they sound, hence the administration keeps them on hand (I think Karl Rove said something to that effect).

We have elections. Use them. If anyone out there is going to contend that the situation is so extraordinary that we need to not only remove the politicians but be ready to physically resist something they can't even put into words beyond vague rhetoric, then I'd love to hear the justification.
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:33 PM
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Sovereign, I couldn't agree more. You bring up an important point concerning the Patriot Act. No one on the "TEA" party side spoke up against it when it came out. Now, they are up in arms afraid of what Obama will do. I know how this sort think. I have a friend of mine who I also work with who is deep in this and other "conspiracy" stuff. She gets herself so worried and paranoid. I think that a lot of this is generated by fear. There has been a great distrust of government for a long time. Many people still haven't forgotten Watergate. Any increase of power in the federal government is seen by some of these people as a very scary thing. Some of them look at what happened in 1933 in Germany and look at what is happening now. Some of these people honestly believe we are on the brink of another "nazi" or "soviet" style dictatorship where they will round up conservatives and Christians with some Jews in some sort of concentration camps and kill them.

I know it might sound nutty but there seems to be a real fear of this out there. They feel targeted. Is there fear warranted? Probably not to the degree that they are feeling. The question is, what is to be done about this feeling? Some of Obama's advisors have said some very odd and nutty things off the record that has got many people frightened.

It seems to look like, from certain corners, that Obama is after the conservatives and some Christians. At least, this is the thinking. I don't personally believe this but this is what I am hearing from some people.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:33 PM
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So I clicked on this thread thinking it was literally asking if you liked to drink hot tea or cold tea and I was pondering this very question... silly me.

I don't really have anything intelligent to say though.
I think I prefer hot tea in the winter and cold tea in the summer... but yeah lol.
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:35 PM
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Like Dreamwalker I thought I was going to post "I like both hot and cold tea." I guess that will have to be saved for another thread.

Malcontents are nothing new to the United States. I liked the history of the Know Nothing party from the 19th century. Seems to have a few parallels.

I'm not going to sugar coat it. While they may have a few decent points it's my own personal opinion that the Tea Party type are just plain idiots. I mean some of the sound bites on the news were amazing. I think those quotes of "Keep Your Government Hands Off My Medicare" really were some of the best.

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Old 04-13-2010, 09:55 PM
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txen, Dreamwalker: I don't like tea of either the political variety or the beverage variety

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel77
Sovereign, I couldn't agree more. You bring up an important point concerning the Patriot Act. No one on the "TEA" party side spoke up against it when it came out. Now, they are up in arms afraid of what Obama will do. I know how this sort think. I have a friend of mine who I also work with who is deep in this and other "conspiracy" stuff. She gets herself so worried and paranoid. I think that a lot of this is generated by fear. There has been a great distrust of government for a long time. Many people still haven't forgotten Watergate. Any increase of power in the federal government is seen by some of these people as a very scary thing. Some of them look at what happened in 1933 in Germany and look at what is happening now. Some of these people honestly believe we are on the brink of another "nazi" or "soviet" style dictatorship where they will round up conservatives and Christians with some Jews in some sort of concentration camps and kill them.
A few moderates and quite a few liberals were busy comparing George W. Bush's warrantless wiretapping, "free speech zones" and poking around libraries with Stalin, Hitler and other unsavory historical references. They were ignored, called loonies, unpatriotic and worse. The media pretty much pretended they didn't exist.

Now this conservative resurgence appears, and starts fussing? It seems like a case of (admittedly immature) "It's wrong when I disagree." I'm not going after you, rapunzel77, far from it. You're much more level-headed than any of these people. It just irks the heck out of me that any criticism from the "left" is harshly judged (hyperbolic or not), while these right-wingers are somehow given a level of credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel77
I know it might sound nutty but there seems to be a real fear of this out there. They feel targeted. Is there fear warranted? Probably not to the degree that they are feeling. The question is, what is to be done about this feeling? Some of Obama's advisors have said some very odd and nutty things off the record that has got many people frightened.
What, exactly has been said? I'm not going to deny things were said because I don't know what item(s) might have caused such a reaction in the first place. If you find any, please post them so I can do my usual fact-check (to make sure it's not more Tea Party fear-spin). This is legitimate (insofar as there may be actual statements and/or false information) since if someone honestly doesn't know whether something was said, the natural response to crazy is more crazy.

However, if they're feeling targeted because they're suddenly in the minority in terms of political power since the GOP was swept out (the Tea Party is generally whiter, older, more Christian and more conservative than the country as a whole), boo f---ing hoo. I'm sorry, but if this is simply a reaction to losing an election (which I doubt it is, but I'm sure it's part of the reason), deal with it. You don't win all the time. Those who beat their chests over how "This is a Christian nation" and what-have you need to realize that if this nation really existed in the image they've built in their heads, these electoral losses wouldn't happen because the majority would stop it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapunzel77
It seems to look like, from certain corners, that Obama is after the conservatives and some Christians. At least, this is the thinking. I don't personally believe this but this is what I am hearing from some people.
Again, I wish to ask them why they feel "targeted." If it's because, essentially, their views are not in the majority in the halls of power, boo hoo. You lost. Now convince us why you deserve a shot at power. This is similar to what the Democrats were told by the same conservative chest-thumpers ("This is a conservative nation, deal with it"). If they think they somehow deserve special treatment (i.e. free shots at the Democratic President while holding attacking the Republican President was wrong), they're still being illogical.

Obama has not taken anyone's guns away. In fact, I don't think the Obama administration has made an issue out of gun control at all. For those who fear the nation is "slipping morally" because of things happening which disagree with your morals, this again brings up the "deal with it" line. Politics is a marketplace of ideas. If your product is being left on the shelf, you can't march people in at gunpoint to increase sales, or intimidate them into buying. You have to convince them using reason, rationality, and a little emotion.

I have to stress again rapunzel77, I'm not attacking you. I'm just sick of these crybaby types who feel like "someone's out to get me" because we have a black, liberal President. Fear begets more fear, and in that fear they find justification. It's just like the few liberals who were saying the world would end because of Bush.

I've heard so much about the sky falling from all sides that until a piece of it hits me on the head, I'm not even going to bother looking up. I know this fear is out there, but I don't get it. It makes no sense to me. What mental processes do these people go through? Where do they get their information?
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Last edited by Sovereign; 04-13-2010 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
I have to stress again rapunzel77, I'm not attacking you. I'm just sick of these crybaby types who feel like "someone's out to get me" because we have a black, liberal President. Fear begets more fear, and in that fear they find justification. It's just like the few liberals who were saying the world would end because of Bush.

I've heard so much about the sky falling from all sides that until a piece of it hits me on the head, I'm not even going to bother looking up. I know this fear is out there, but I don't get it. It makes no sense to me. What mental processes do these people go through? Where do they get their information?
I know that you are not attacking me . I think it goes beyond merely losing elections. It might be the case that some of Obama's "czars" are kinda strange. I know one of them decided to resign after it was revealed that he actually is a communist. There is also the "safe schools" czar that is questionable. Its one thing to be in the minority. That's fine. However, I guess its due to the general climate of contempt that one finds. I'm not much for belly aching and complaining. That does no one any good and I am tired of it on all sides.

I also agree that the US has never been truly a "christian" nation. Several of our founding fathers had questionable morals. Granted, we can't impose our own 21st C social mores on people who lived decades to centuries ago. We have come to the conclusion that slavery is wrong. That segregation is wrong and so on. Basically, some people are afraid that laws could be enacted that would further curtail freedom of speech and free expression of religion.

Its a fear of a domino effect I guess. My friend and others like her read a ton of stuff from obscure places. I question where she is getting her sources.

Again, don't deny the fear. Its definitely there. The question is how to deal with it.

I also agree that some of the "TEA" party rhetoric is odd and I laughed at the sign you quoted, "keep the government off my medicare." Its silly because as we all know, Medicare is a government program.
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Old 04-14-2010, 08:18 PM
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I clicked on this prepared to say 'Hot. But coffee > tea'
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:00 PM
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LOL at the three people now who got tricked by my metaphor.

I'm not denying fear (both legitimate and not) exists, the fact that it does exist in both forms is what motivates my question.

Which "czar" was a Communist? I never heard about that.

Also, these "czars" represent yet another fantastic contradiction in American governance. We want lots of people to have input through democracy, but then we complain that the process is slow. We want action by centralizing and giving authority to a few (like a corporation) but then we say it's tyrannical.

It seems to me one of the biggest problems with government today is the people themselves. Our demands are sometimes mutually exclusive, or close to it. Here's an example with the always-intractable budget.

Also see the graph derived from the poll.

In short, vast majorities want to cut places that there's no money to be found in. Until people accept (in my opinion) both higher taxes and reduced benefits, debt cannot be controlled.

American's ignorance of how the budget is actually constructed drives them to attack things like foreign aid when the real problems are programs which for better or for worse line the pockets of many Americans.

Everyone wants to 'end waste' but no one wants to give up their piece of it.
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Last edited by Sovereign; 04-14-2010 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:06 PM
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I admit that I was almost taken in by the title too. I prefer cold tea but I'll drink hot tea as well .
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:15 PM
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Lots of hot tea when I am sick and cold tea when it's hot outside
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