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  #1  
Old 04-19-2010, 05:37 AM
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Ikran Makto
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Default Socialists Unite.

This is a thread for like minded socialists to discuss and congregate, with a common belief that the world needs change. A change to socialism, for the better.

Spakey's Prerogative

This is my website, I will occasionaly post socialist content, my first published socialist document is this:

Why we need Socialism

Below is the world socialist movement website:

World Socialist Movement

I will start us off, by posting socialist principles set down by the world socialist movement.

Object
The establishment of a system of society based upon the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth by and in the interest of the whole community.

Declaration of Principles
The Companion Parties of the World Socialist Movement hold

1.That society as at present constituted is based upon the ownership of the means of living (i.e., land, factories, railways, etc.) by the capitalist or master class, and the consequent enslavement of the working class, by whose labor alone wealth is produced.

2.That in society, therefore, there is an antagonism of interests, manifesting itself as a class struggle between those who possess but do not produce and those who produce but do not possess.

3.That this antagonism can be abolished only by the emancipation of the working class from the domination of the master class, by the conversion into the common property of society of the means of production and distribution, and their democratic control by the whole people.

4.That as in the order of social evolution the working class is the last class to achieve its freedom, the emancipation of the working class will involve the emancipation of all mankind, without distinction of race or sex.

5.That this emancipation must be the work of the working class itself.

6.That as the machinery of government, including the armed forces of the nation, exists only to conserve the monopoly by the capitalist class of the wealth taken from the workers, the working class must organize consciously and politically for the conquest of the powers of government, national and local, in order that this machinery, including these forces, may be converted from an instrument of oppression into the agent of emancipation and the overthrow of privilege, aristocratic and plutocratic.

7.That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interests of all sections of the the master class, the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.

8.The Companion Parties of the World Socialist Movement, therefore, enter the field of political action determined to wage war against all other political parties, whether alleged labor or avowedly capitalist, and call upon the members of the working class of each country to muster under its banner to the end that a speedy termination may be wrought to the system which deprives them of the fruits of their labor, and that poverty may give place to comfort, privilege to equality, and slavery to freedom.

Join me in discussion. At anyones discretion I will post a debunk of socialism's flaws, written and published by the world socialist movement.
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  #2  
Old 04-19-2010, 05:43 AM
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Moved to debates.
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:47 AM
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Moved to debates.
Thanks, I can imagine you have forseen the coming debates here, any chance of a sticky? Did you get my PM?
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:48 AM
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Hmm I like those principles.
However nowadays most people in western societies have a morbid fear of Socialism since they wrongly attribute it with communism and anarchism.
This would make it almost impossible to implement a socialist government or movement unless there was a radical upheaval or revolution of some sort.
I strongly support socialism though, as a member of the working class.
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:51 AM
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One question I have on this, is will it allow those who wish to excel the ability to move slightly above another if they work harder?
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto View Post
Hmm I like those principles.
However nowadays most people in western societies have a morbid fear of Socialism since they wrongly attribute it with communism and anarchism.
This would make it almost impossible to implement a socialist government or movement unless there was a radical upheaval or revolution of some sort.
I strongly support socialism though, as a member of the working class.
Yes, you are right. You can see this in the form of the Tea-Party movement in the U.S. They are incredibly misguided and label anything they don't like socialism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aihwa View Post
One question I have on this, is will it allow those who wish to excel the ability to move slightly above another if they work harder?
Yes, people are payed according to labour, so a slight advantage would be incurred.
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:56 AM
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Uhh....

*backs away*

*slowly*
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:56 AM
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Sounds good, when do we start?

Or should I say, what can I do to help this move on?
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Uhh....

*backs away*

*slowly*
You know, you could make one called capitalists unite?

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Originally Posted by Aihwa View Post
Sounds good, when do we start?

Or should I say, what can I do to help this move on?
I'm kind of out on a limb here, you could do some research to see if you are anywhere near a local socialist movement, otherwise just follow their website updates.
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Last edited by Spock; 04-19-2010 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:11 AM
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"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

For a good example, just look at the USSR, or even our economic situation today and our simply awful national debt... Admittedly, we are far from being a socialist country like Spock wants, but the mismanagement of the country still happened by arguably the most socialist of the mainstream parties and primarily through over-investment in inefficient government projects and handouts to people too lazy to work (don't even get me started on that... - I have no problem with such benefits in general, but they should not be given to people who are content to live off the state)


The other main problem with socialism, which I think may be insurmountable, is that there's no drive to succeed, to improve or innovate. If everything was handed to you, would you work hard at your job, or get along doing the bare minimum, knowing that your situation will remain the same either way?

Of course, the other problem is that every single implementation of socialism has been massively hypocritical and a way for leaders to gain power at the expense of others. In my opinion, neither socialism or pure capitalism is a perfect system.
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
You know, you could make one called capitalists unite?



I'm kind of out on a limb here, you could do some research to see if you are anywhere near a local socialist movement, otherwise just follow their website updates.
Nargg!
There's flyers everywhere for the socialist movement in my suburb and I keep forgetting to take one and join up.
Next time I swear I'll do just that
*makes mental note*
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The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly."
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"Try to see the forest through her eyes."

Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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  #12  
Old 04-19-2010, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"
No, not at all, how exactly would that happen. In extreme forms of socialism you even end up with money becoming obsolete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
For a good example, just look at the USSR, or even our economic situation today and our simply awful national debt... Admittedly, we are far from being a socialist country like Spock wants, but the mismanagement of the country still happened by arguably the most socialist of the mainstream parties and primarily through over-investment in inefficient government projects and handouts to people too lazy to work (don't even get me started on that... - I have no problem with such benefits in general, but they should not be given to people who are content to live off the state)
People don't get handouts if they don't work. Everyone is payed according to labour. Therfore you avoid freeloaders. Don't use the USSR as an example, it was a poor fallace of socialism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
The other main problem with socialism, which I think may be insurmountable, is that there's no drive to succeed, to improve or innovate. If everything was handed to you, would you work hard at your job, or get along doing the bare minimum, knowing that your situation will remain the same either way?
That is how capitalism has warped human behaviour, this can be changed depending on your upbringing, that is if we're talking incentives. But more to the point, there is still the disire to have ownership, therefore people will work for what they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Of course, the other problem is that every single implementation of socialism has been massively hypocritical and a way for leaders to gain power at the expense of others. In my opinion, neither socialism or pure capitalism is a perfect system.
We are living in a hypocritical society right now, more hypocritical than socialist experiments ever were. You must also remember that socialism has been refined for success over the past few decades, I'm still disecting the world socialist movement's articles, its actually quite amazing. Ok, you throw some questions at me and I'll refer you to one of their articles that will answer your questions.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:30 AM
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I'm totally ignorant when it comes to history, so I can't comment on the merits or drawbacks of any particular system. Having said that, this looks pretty much the kind of society I'd like to live in.

The Venus Project

What do you think, Spock?
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Old 04-19-2010, 05:16 PM
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The question I have is, why are we stuck on this see saw? Why does it have to be socialism or capitalism? Isn't there perhaps other systems we can explore or even come up with something better than what has existed before? It seems that for over 200 years you had either one of these two systems (yes, I know that socialism/communism as we know it didn't start until the late 19th-early 20th centuries). Are these the best systems to have? Could there possibly be others? What do you think?
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Old 04-19-2010, 06:51 PM
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I think the best system is a balance of a free market, with some control and government programs. A complete implementation of either system is flawed to the point of unworkability.
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