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Old 06-02-2011, 08:46 PM
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Default Belo Monte Dam approved :(

Quote:
Brazil's environment agency has backed construction of a hydro-electric dam in the Amazon, opposed by indigenous groups and environmentalists.

The agency, Ibama, said the Belo Monte dam on the Xingu River had been subjected to "robust analysis" of its impact on the environment.

The government says the dam is key to meeting Brazil's growing energy needs.

But opponents argue it will harm the world's largest tropical rainforest and displace tens of thousands of people.

In January, Ibama gave the go-ahead for initial work to begin on the site on the Xingu, a tributary of the Amazon River.

Now, Ibama has issued the penultimate licence that the Norte Energia consortium building the dam needs.
BBC News - Brazil grants building permit for Belo Monte Amazon dam

So much for all the petitions and support by celebrities !
Damn you, Norte Energia !
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:07 PM
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There's 2 currencies nowadays. Money, and violence. Doesn't look like the environmentalists and natives gave either, so they better make up their minds soon.
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:07 PM
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I saw that piece of bad news just today, at work, on the web news platform "Telepolis"... that really made my day (in the sad sense, that is).


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Old 06-03-2011, 03:43 PM
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I do not know what is worse: forcing Brazil to import oil from Arab countries (which show no respect for Human Rights) or to curb their development. Anyway, there will always be a loser, this time it was the people living there, which will be forced to leave their land. As a Bolivian, cannot avoid to feel a bit guilty about it, our government practically forced Brazil to look for other sources of energy when they nationalized the operating branch of Petrobras here and then ruined the whole hydrocarbons industry (right now, the national grid has started rationing the electricity).
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:55 PM
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..............................................







That's all I have to say.
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:40 PM
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Maybe after they build it, everyone involved can jump off it?

*sigh* All that fighting, for naught.

Filthy swine...
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:58 PM
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Very sad only
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:11 PM
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i don't think that it is fair to insult Brazil(ians) by this decision. They need power and (please, forgive me) I think that building a dam is preferable to spend millions of dollars in oil, which would be burned to an efficiency of 60% at best to produce electric power. Even if the project looks evil now, I think that it will harm the environment much less than using the same amount of oil for electricity generation. Time will tell.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:58 PM
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Why is everything always sacrificed on the alter of development? Indigenous cultures, the environment, human rights. They always lose on these issues. All this is doing is feeding the already unsustainable dominant culture. This is like domestic imperialism.

How do you know that this will replace oil imports, not just supplement them (of all the pieces I've read, I see nothing about replacing oil)? All this will do is fuel growth. Then all you'll have is still oil being imported and burned, this monstrosity killing the Xingu, 40,000 displaced people, and even more consumption of other resources. Brazil needs to nurture what it has using other energy means (which I will describe below), not thirst for more.

Brazil should do what Germany did, subsidize solar energy development and give tax breaks and subsidies for people to install solar panels on their homes, same with geothermal infrastructure. Solar power in Germany provides a potential 17000MW of energy, more than the 11000MW that the dam could provide.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 06-03-2011 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
i don't think that it is fair to insult Brazil(ians) by this decision. They need power and (please, forgive me) I think that building a dam is preferable to spend millions of dollars in oil, which would be burned to an efficiency of 60% at best to produce electric power. Even if the project looks evil now, I think that it will harm the environment much less than using the same amount of oil for electricity generation. Time will tell.
I just feel bad for the indigenous people of the area. Their culture needs no oil and dams, why isn't it taken as something to learn from instead of yet another thing on the way.

All the oil will be burned anyway (and so will all the dams be built too) it's just a matter of time..
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:02 AM
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So, there's nothing left to try?
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:53 AM
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I increasingly feel that what the world needs is a kind of 'Apollo program' for good, green, ethical sustainable energy sources. A massive global government funded effort (no corporate money or lobbyists) to investigate and construct the least damaging solutions to humanity's energy needs.
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:57 PM
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We are urged to take a last stand:

Quote:
This has been a time of tragedy in the Amazon. This week the Brazilian government green-lighted construction on the monstrous Belo Monte Dam despite searing local, national and international opposition. Yet despite the initiation of this criminal operation, I can assure you that the battle to defend the Xingu River and its people is far from over.


I have just returned from the Brazilian Amazon, where Chief Raoni gathered with hundreds of Kayapo warriors, indigenous leaders from 18 ethnicities, and leaders from the Xingu Alive Forever Movement (MXVPS).

"This is the last chance we have to paralyze Belo Monte's construction," Renata Pinheiro told the indigenous assembly. "The future of the Xingu is in your hands, indigenous peoples and social movements. You succeeded in stopping Belo Monte for 30 years – now more than ever we need to strengthen our resolve, joining forces to stop the beginning of construction."

It's now more important than ever that we take this campaign to the next level.

Take a stand, stop this monstrous project by joining the Cause on Facebook "Stop the Monster Dam: Protect the Xingu River and its People". Your donation today will support the travel of indigenous leaders to Brasilia and Altamira to make their voices heard.

Xingu Alive Forever! Xingu Vivo Para Sempre!

Christian Poirier
Brazil Program Coordinator

Amazon Watch
A video:

Stop the Monster Dam: Protect the Xingu River and Its People
Stop the Monster Dam: Protect the Xingu River and Its People | causes.com
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2011, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISV Venture Star View Post
I increasingly feel that what the world needs is a kind of 'Apollo program' for good, green, ethical sustainable energy sources. A massive global government funded effort (no corporate money or lobbyists) to investigate and construct the least damaging solutions to humanity's energy needs.
Indeed. And let them all scream "Communism" and "Socialism" if they want - I don't care, a solution that works is needed despite ideologies. I do not know what will work, clearly just keep consuming and grow in energy desires will certainly not work together with "green" energy - other things have to change too, but certainly as long as there is that stupid government around and collecting and spending money (on wars mostly), it could at least do something productive.
And in a sense - that kind of project in the end would be one that comes from the people,because it is after all the peoples government and money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosus View Post
I just feel bad for the indigenous people of the area. Their culture needs no oil and dams, why isn't it taken as something to learn from instead of yet another thing on the way.
Indeed! That idiotic distorted idea of democracy or "the comfort of the many is higher valued than the livelihoods of the few that happen to stand in the way" makes me sick. It is one of the messages of Avatar and of the repreated indigenous struggle that this idea is crap - that the powerful and privileged have no right to use that argument to displace or exploit minorities just because the benefit from that serves more people than will suffer from it. This is unetical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
This is like domestic imperialism.
This is like domestic imperialism!
This is like domestic imperialism?

Quote:
How do you know that this will replace oil imports, not just supplement them
That has nothing to do with oil. We all know that the need demand desire for energy especially in the "developing countries" is rising anyways, so all kind of sources will be use, more dams, more solar panels, wind, nuclear plants, coal, oil gas - whatever is available because more energy means more growth and more production and more industrialization and more exports...
Also in the most cases, oil is not really used so much for electricity, it has become too valuable already compared to other options. Hydropower is the cheapest energy ever, so it is used for the most wasteful processes like Aluminium smelters. I think one can bet that the construction of that dam will be followed by the creation of local bauxite mining and smeltering or other high-energy industries. Only a fraction of it will actually go to serve households.

Check out the Lake Volta dam project. It is the exact same story just some decades in the past. It was advertised as a project to supply the people with electricity. Some tens of thousands of people were displaced, communities destroyed and people died from that (e.g. by becoming alcoholics or drug addicts out of sorrow or simply dying of grief). And in the end, most of the energy is used to fuel high energy industries owned by international corporations with foreign workers producing export goods, while the dam has a detrimental impact on the environment.

i recommend an excellent documentary: BBC – Pandora’s Box by Adam Curtis | myTVblog.org : Your ultimate TV destination...
Part 5 deals with the Lake Volta project. The other episodes are worthwile watching, too.

Quote:
Solar power in Germany provides a potential 17000MW of energy, more than the 11000MW that the dam could provide.
And that is in a country that is not on the sunny part of the planet... But of course this cannot compete with a convenient steady cheap supply of electricity a destructive dam project can provide.

EDIT: P.S.: Seriously - the "last chance for action" requires me to get a facebook account? That's desperate...
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"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"

Last edited by auroraglacialis; 06-04-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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  #15  
Old 06-05-2011, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auroraglacialis View Post
Indeed. And let them all scream "Communism" and "Socialism" if they want - I don't care, a solution that works is needed despite ideologies. I do not know what will work, clearly just keep consuming and grow in energy desires will certainly not work together with "green" energy - other things have to change too, but certainly as long as there is that stupid government around and collecting and spending money (on wars mostly), it could at least do something productive.
And in a sense - that kind of project in the end would be one that comes from the people,because it is after all the peoples government and money.
It is more likely that private entrepreneurs will come with a solution. Government institutions are too regulated to let money go into projects that may or may not be successful. Private entrepreneurs will risk their money in such projects, no matter what the outcome would be.
Quote:
Indeed! That idiotic distorted idea of democracy or "the comfort of the many is higher valued than the livelihoods of the few that happen to stand in the way" makes me sick. It is one of the messages of Avatar and of the repreated indigenous struggle that this idea is crap - that the powerful and privileged have no right to use that argument to displace or exploit minorities just because the benefit from that serves more people than will suffer from it. This is unetical.
Actually, the message was to let people take their own decisions, not to intervene in foreign matters.
Are you suggesting that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many? You've gone to the beginning of the French Revolution, where the King (and nobility) had all the decisions made to their needs leaving an entire country in famine while they feasted for weeks!
The number of affected people (the indigenous) in the worst case is thousands, without power, the number will rise to hundreds of thousands, and considering the growth of Brazil, easily millions without affordable power. How unethical is that?
Quote:
This is like domestic imperialism!
This is like domestic imperialism?


That has nothing to do with oil. We all know that the need demand desire for energy especially in the "developing countries" is rising anyways, so all kind of sources will be use, more dams, more solar panels, wind, nuclear plants, coal, oil gas - whatever is available because more energy means more growth and more production and more industrialization and more exports...
Also in the most cases, oil is not really used so much for electricity, it has become too valuable already compared to other options. Hydropower is the cheapest energy ever, so it is used for the most wasteful processes like Aluminium smelters. I think one can bet that the construction of that dam will be followed by the creation of local bauxite mining and smeltering or other high-energy industries. Only a fraction of it will actually go to serve households.
Actually, more than two thirds of the power that will be generated in the dam are going to be used in cities and houses, the other third will go to industry. You have to consider that by next year, there will be one computer per every two persons in Brazil. And the World Cup and Olympic games are quite near. SO, that's a lot of power.
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