Fukushima updates - Page 2 - Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Go Back   Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum » General Forums » Environmentalism

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 08-26-2011, 01:33 PM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

Weapons testing? Oh please... do you mean the whole 0.005 mSv/year (in 2000 - 0.15mSv/yr in 1960) or 0.125% of all background radiation?

Not all cancer has a cause per se, and yes - cancer deaths attributed to radiation exposure can be determined as such (indeed, all it does is potentially increases the risk, including cells that are already present). Getting a single X-ray is far more than a day's dose from natural and manmade sources combined, while some CT scans are more than a year's. Coal leads the industry in cancer deaths with 0.8 per GW year.

Fallout is always mapped, and carefully - and no, weapons tests do not count as power generation (lolwut?).

Pointing out deaths due to lack of government resources is not a cause - that is a government funding issue. Indeed, such cases have been low, as the emergency response was very organised. I am very surprised you hear you say anything about the ~15,000 dead rather than your pet complaining opportunity though.

As for backups, a '2nd level' is nothing - services may switch through redundant systems all the time for maintenance. In the event of a failure, there are more than enough. Some modern designs even have a spring-driven SCRAM system in case gravity does not drive the control rods in (yes, seriously.)
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-26-2011, 10:53 PM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

Yeah yeah I know. Its all just hysteria and unfounded panic of people of radiation. There is nothing to see, please move along...

And maybe radiation is even good for you! At least Fukushima people say that people will surely come in flocks to enjoy the healthy radiation of the place.

Here is an interesting reader by the way: Chernobyl | The New York Academy of Sciences
Quote:
This is a collection of papers translated from the Russian with some revised and updated contributions. Written by leading authorities from Eastern Europe, the volume outlines the history of the health and environmental consequences of the Chernobyl disaster.[...]
The Academy is committed to publishing content deemed scientifically valid by the general scientific community, from whom the Academy carefully monitors feedback.
It probably is on the other side of "nearly no one has died from nuclear power" with its claim that over a million people died from results of Chernobyl - I guess I would not buy any of these two extreme positions, but say that there were certainly many deaths that would not have happened without the disaster and that could not conclusively be traced to the disaster (because a cancer - even one caused by radiation - can have many reasons - too many CT scans or X-Rays, too much sun, poorly controlled food that was radioactive, soil contamination,...). So I guess it comes down to whom you want to believe - the IAEA or that NYAS published book or whomever else.

Oh and I think you dodged one important topic continuously in this kind of debate. What do you think is the consequence of nuclear power if societies fail, if economics go in deep recession or panic, if countries go to war? To just pretend that none of this will ever happen to countries that have nuclear power is quite an assumption...

But I know we will not meet in this topic. You just love your nuclear energy and I dislike it strongly. That will not change. I have a question though - would you like to live in Fukushima city? Ir in one of the towns within the 20 mile radius or the 10 mile radius of Fukushima? After all, all that will happen is that you get a couple of CT scans of exposure more and just because your risk of getting cancer increases does not mean you will get cancer, right? Or how about the Chernobyl exclusion zone. I heard they have beautiful forests there...


But I do not want this to make another general Nuclear power debate...
I just want it to be remembered that Fukushima is still happening, that people in Japan are scared because on various occasions food or water or soil pops up in unlikely places that has a high radiation level, that strangely there are still substances measured in high concentrations that have a halflife of just days and should almost be below detection limit if they would have formed in ir before the disaster...
And even in the unlikely event that its all just nonsense and radiation is not that dangerous after all - the impact on people is real, the evacuation is real, the uncertainty which food is safe and which is not is real. And the threat of it happening again elsewhere is real, too.
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-27-2011, 04:18 AM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

You're right - there's never going to be a consensus here, and arguably we both may even see what we want to - indee,d I even do think that eventually nuclear should be replaced with fusion, but humanity is 10-20 years away at the very least. As for living there myself, well, I would honestly have no problem living near a modern one (for an older-type reactor, the additional yearly dose is slightly less than the dose from the potassium isotopes in one banana), but when it comes to Fukushima itself there would be more concerns, naturally - I would not want to right now, but in the future, it will clearly be safe again. Nobody is scared to live in Hiroshima or Nagasaki these days, or even within certain former restricted or evacuation zones from Chernobyl.

Yes, any occurrence of a measurably above background level of radiation is a bad thing, but the fact that these precautions are in place is good.
It has dropped out of the news' focus, certainly, but I would say that a large part of the reason behind that is that more sensationalist outlets can no longer produce 'scare stories' just as much as public interest having moved on.
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-27-2011, 08:42 AM
Sight Unseen's Avatar
Karyu
Sight Unseen is a perfectly ordinary magical unicorn.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,349
Default

Aurora: Are you referring to the event at North Anna? North Anna Nuclear Yeah, not too serious. A backup generator overheated.

HNM: Usually the spring-loaded control rod systems are used on reactors where the control rods are inserted from the bottom; they aren't a failsafe against someone shutting off gravity.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-27-2011, 03:26 PM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

Ok, HNM, you seem to dodge that intentionally, thats ok then.

My question about living in the exclusion zones right now was more or less targeted at your downplaying the risks of nuclear radiation. I think most people, you included would not want to go to these places now and live there, even though doing so would probably mean that you'd get the maximum allowed dosage before the official charts speak of risking cancer only if you lived there for many years.

I know this is China and not Fukushima, but this is quite telling about how nuclear power in general is handled (still): WikiLeaks cables reveal fears over China's nuclear safety | Environment | The Guardian
From that article it seems that China instead of building the top notch advanced and possibly safer new reactors, they will just settle for the older ones - because they are cheaper, the Chinese have access to the technology and they are faster to build.

I think its obvious that the very least that has to happen if nuclear power is to be used safely is to operate it not under the pressures of making a maximum profit, providing energy as fast as possible or as cheap as possible. For these things, nuclear power is just too dangerous.
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-27-2011, 11:32 PM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

Sorry, I did miss that, with you hiding it inside a massive block of italic text. The answer is, that without any operator input, if it is not maintained, it will shut down.

SightUnseen - those types are obsolete, yet modern designs HAVE still maintained that system as a failsafe. I'd say being designed to be safe in the event gravity stops working shows care

China is almost another USSR, although not quite that bad, and things would be much harder both to work around safety procedures in the first place, but also to hide. A human factor is the cause of most accidents of any type - the fact that they are looking to cut costs just shows that modern designs should be made available, as if they are not, then people WILL use older ones, because nobody is willing to do without energy any more than water. You're right that profit mustn't be the number one objective, and it can never compete with coal, oil or gas on price, yet is still far cheaper than any remaining source, with or without subsidy for those. Saying it is 'too dangerous' is ridiculous when oil has killed hundreds of times as many people and caused actual widespread environmental damage. You are unrealistic in your belief the world can survive without energy, which I would say you hold against all evidence.

PS. yet again, you post another link thinking people will just see the blue text and not read it, fortunately I'm more intelligent than that.
Quote:
China says it has updated and improved the technology on which the CPR-1000 is based, but the government recognises that it is less safe than newer models. China's national nuclear safety administration and national energy administration are currently drafting new safety plans, which are thought likely to include a stipulation that all future plants have to meet the higher standards of third-generation reactors like the AP-1000 or thorium technology.
Nobody knows exactly what's in there, but it has been updated from an older design, and the very act of bringing in new safety legislation (which is normally applied to existing installations outside of exceptional circumstances) shows they ave no intention of making commitments they can not keep.
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-28-2011, 10:35 AM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Sorry, I did miss that, with you hiding it inside a massive block of italic text. The answer is, that without any operator input, if it is not maintained, it will shut down.
Wow, that is cool. So without money for maintenance, no one operating the plants, maybe bombs flying on the plant, it will just shut down into a stasis field indefinitely until one day someone can turn it on again? Wow, these things are so cool.

Maybe they even are just phased out of reality in case of such an emergency?


Quote:
You're right that profit mustn't be the number one objective, and it can never compete with coal, oil or gas on price, yet is still far cheaper than any remaining source, with or without subsidy for those
What I am saying is that it is insane to choose technologies like this on terms of profit or cheapness. What is important is health, humans, nonhumans, the planet - and not if one source of energy is a bit cheaper or more profitable than another. Also that statement was directed at the present economic system that operates precisely under the maximum profit policy. Now at present we have two choices - let companies operate these plants at a maximum profit (with all the consequences we see in Japan), or let states run the plants (with all the consequences of Chernobyl). To really safely operate and build and maintain such a technology, you'd need an operator, that is at the utmost concerned with public safety and wellbeing and values these things over the price of the energy or profit. Such an entity does not exist at the moment, so I would not trust anyone with this method.

Quote:
Saying it is 'too dangerous' is ridiculous when oil has killed hundreds of times as many people and caused actual widespread environmental damage.
Ok, so asteroid impacts (I know they are one of your favourites when it comes to why we need more and more technology and become a spacefaring species) are not dangerous? After all they have not yet killed any significant number of humans.

Quote:
You are unrealistic in your belief the world can survive without energy, which I would say you hold against all evidence.
The world can, humans can, human high tech civilization can not.
You are probably right though - no one will want to give up abundant electricity. People will want more and more of it until the world dies. Maybe that is so, then we're screwd because the things that are going on now are killing the planet and killing people. And there are some billions of people more waiting to get the same crap. Maybe Earth as in Avatar is our destiny with more and more people consuming more and more stuff, "resources", electriticy. And maybe then we will go to space and look for some other planet to trash. The new frontier - in remembrance of the old frontier of the North Americas. Yee Ha.

Quote:
PS. yet again, you post another link thinking people will just see the blue text and not read it, fortunately I'm more intelligent than that.
Yeah lucky for the people in this forum to have such a genius keep watch over such an idiot like me who knows nothing about anything.

Thats enough for me for now. I am outta here for a while! Have some good days...
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:15 PM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

Fukushima radiation higher than first estimated | Reuters

SoftBank Unveils World's First Phone With Radiation Detection | Gadget Lab | Wired.com
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-01-2012, 12:32 AM
Clarke's Avatar
Karyu
Clarke wants his own Avatar.
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Scotland, 140 years too early
Posts: 1,330
Default

990PBq is not a useful figure for knowing how much damage it does.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-01-2012, 04:46 AM
txim_asawl's Avatar
Taronyu
txim_asawl wiggles his bare toes.
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ruhr Megalopolis, Germany
Posts: 447
Default

Well, at least the people in Japan will be able soon to measure the danger with their new cell phones, as a model with a built-in Geiger counter will be available on the Japanese market soon...

Grim irony, as defined by communications tech engineering...

Japan Mobile Tech: Softbank 107SH Pantone 5 Geiger counter phone: Tool or toy?

heise online | Japanisches Handy misst Strahlenwerte

Wiggling bare toes in disbelief, when hearing about this,

~*Txim Asawl*~

(Woops, just saw, that Aurora was faster in posting about the cell phone... still, if it weren't a serious matter, one might utter bitter laughs... I know at least one very sarcastic German satirist, who will jump at this piece of news)
__________________

Si'ekong te'lanä, te'lanä le-Na'vi, oeru teya si.
And the beats of the hearts, the hearts of the People, fills me.

Last edited by txim_asawl; 06-01-2012 at 04:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:31 AM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

The point was not really how much damage it does, but that once again the usual trend plays out that things got underestimated and then when things have calmed down, it is admitted that everything was actually much worse in the beginning.

The same is interestingly true for the "limits of groth" predictions as well as climate change models. In many parameters the effects have been underestimated or estimated correctly but sadly rarely the reality turns out significantly more positive than the predictions.

Climate Change Facts: Climate Models Are Reliable | Weather Underground

1970s Study Predictions Are Still On Target For 2030s Decline Of Humanity | Gizmodo Australia
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-01-2012, 11:42 PM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

Marketing to hysteria is always profitable.



Txim, interesting link about it - did you actually read it though? It readily admits that this is nothing but a toy and a gimmick

People can integrate any variety of sensors they wanted into a mobile platform via open systems and a simple ADC; it's really not that hard, it's just marketing to sell them to people.
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-03-2012, 06:42 PM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

yeah - I think they said something like it has a 20% inaccuracy or so. To make the measurement they had to actually build a hardware for it though. I guess It will sell great in Japan.
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-04-2012, 02:42 AM
Human No More's Avatar
Toruk Makto, Admin
Human No More has no status.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In a datacentre
Posts: 11,748
Default

That's useless. It also loses that completely if dropped, or exposed to various ambient conditions.
__________________
...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-06-2012, 06:33 PM
auroraglacialis's Avatar
Tsulfätu
auroraglacialis can now be called "doctor"
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 1,622
Default

This came out today:
National Diet Independent Investigation Commission's Report on Fukushima Accident Is Out | EXSKF
Reports |

The main points are that a lot of the bad stuff int he aftermath could have been prevented by proper planning and this is why they call it a "man made desaster" (geez - as if building a nuclear power plant that blows up without humans actively doing so is not a man made disaster) and that it was actually already the Earthquake that damaged the plant, not the combination with the Tsunami, as it was repeated all the time. This has implications on the other reactors as they could be threatened even without another tsunami, just by more Earthquakes - an almost daily experience in Japan. And they also mention that people were evacuated from low radioactivity zones to higher contaminated zones.
__________________
Know your idols: Who said "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.". (Solution: "Mahatma" Ghandi)

Stop terraforming Earth (wordpress)

"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Visit our partner sites:

      pandoraworld.ru



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:29 AM.

Based on the Planet Earth theme by Themes by Design


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
All images and clips of Avatar are the exclusive property of 20th Century Fox.