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  #1  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:12 AM
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Default Chief Raoni and the Kayapo under attack (Amazon Watch News)

From the electronic mailbag this morning:

"A shocking crisis unfolded last week on the Kapot Nhinore ancestral territories of the Kayapo people in the Xingu River Basin in the Brazilian state of Mato Grosso – the birthplace of legendary Kayapo Chief Raoni.

Crooked ranchers and illegal settlers have sent armed thugs to try to intimidate Kayapo and Juruna communities in attempts to encroach upon their lands. However, rather than being intimidated, armed Kayapo warriors have gathered in a nearby village, heightening the specter of violence and bloodshed. Yet legendary Chief Raoni and his people want to avoid violent confrontation at all cost. He has called for support from people around the world to pressure the Brazilian government to respect their rights and protect their lands.

For several years, Marcio Meira, the President of the Brazilian government's National Indigenous Foundation (FUNAI), has assured the Kayapo that this land would be demarcated as an indigenous territory, but the Kayapo have only seen broken promises and persistent threats to their territory, including land invasions, illegal fishing and logging activities. To make matters worse, government-sanctioned repression has begun: Recent reports have emerged that rather than disarm armed thugs, local police have badly beaten two indigenous Juruna men peacefully demonstrating the land invasions before themselves being driven away by Kayapo warriors.

These tragic events follow an alarming and growing pattern of violations of the rights of indigenous peoples aided and abetted by the Brazilian government, such as its illegal and authoritarian decision to proceed with the disastrous Belo Monte dam on the Xingu River. As is their determined way, the Kayapo have chosen to defend their rights and their land but they need your support today.

Send a letter to the President of FUNAI Marcio Meira demanding he act swiftly to restore order and honor his promise to demarcate the Kapot Nhinore territory!

The threat to territory is not a simply an affront to the integrity of the protected areas, forests and rivers, that the Kayapo steward, it's an affront to their enduring physical and cultural survival. Land is life, and the loss of these lands is paramount to a condemnation of cultural disintegration.

In solidarity with the Kayapo, Juruna and all of the Xingu's indigenous peoples,

Christian Poirier
Brazil Campaigner
Amazon Watch"

Web link to the letter campaign: AMAZON WATCH

~*Txim Asawl*~
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:53 AM
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Ha, who's the savage now?
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Old 02-14-2012, 06:24 AM
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If they draw the Brazilian troops into the jungle, the natives will win every time.
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Old 02-14-2012, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
If they draw the Brazilian troops into the jungle, the natives will win every time.
What?

This isn't Avatar; actual armed military would just Napalm everything and be done with it.

Second, it said armed thugs, not military. This is just ******* farmers and illegal loggers trying to intimidate them.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:51 AM
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Why can't they just take out these thugs? Going into 'enemy' territory and intimidating them there SHOULD be suicide :/ It's clear the government doesn't care what's going on down there.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:36 PM
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[Raiden said,What?
This isn't Avatar; actual armed military would just Napalm everything and be done with it.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS AVATAR! Were you even ALIVE during VIETNAM?? You had an ill equipped force of mostly illiterates fighting a military that was armed with "rice paddy radar", airmobile howizers that fired "Beehive Rounds", TOTAL air superiority, ARMORED UNITS, NIGHT VISION, and the insurgents had small arms, and whatever boby traps they could make from the jungle. EXCEPT FOR THE ANIMALS, you have NO IDEA how close to Vietnam the battle scenes in Avatar were. You weren't BORN YET, and I WAS THERE, getting shot at.

As far as it being only being thugs and farmers sent in with the approval of the Government, the natives need to intimidate back.

Niri Te, U,S, Army retired, 7th I.D., 2nd I.D., 101st AIRBORNE, 4/77th ARA,
3/81st F.A., 97th I.D., 10th Mountain Division.

Last edited by Niri Te; 02-14-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:34 PM
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Yes jungle warfare was your speciciality and you survived TWO tours, impressive satts, especially for a helicopter pilot. But you must agree that napalm and agent orange have been used effectively to deforest a region and make it uninhabitable.
But I also know that your units interacted with the montainards, the rebel indigenous population and learned many ingenious low tech tactics.
But in the end, the indigenous people will be shoved on to reservations like they are in this country. Brazil, like America. will politely look away from all the atrocities to move "forward", to benefit industrialization of their cities.
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
[Raiden said,What?
This isn't Avatar; actual armed military would just Napalm everything and be done with it.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS AVATAR! Were you even ALIVE during VIETNAM?? You had an ill equipped force of mostly illiterates fighting a military that was armed with "rice paddy radar", airmobile howizers that fired "Beehive Rounds", TOTAL air superiority, ARMORED UNITS, NIGHT VISION, and the insurgents had small arms, and whatever boby traps they could make from the jungle. EXCEPT FOR THE ANIMALS, you have NO IDEA how close to Vietnam the battle scenes in Avatar were. You weren't BORN YET, and I WAS THERE, getting shot at.

As far as it being only being thugs and farmers sent in with the approval of the Government, the natives need to intimidate back.

Niri Te, U,S, Army retired, 7th I.D., 2nd I.D., 101st AIRBORNE, 4/77th ARA,
3/81st F.A., 97th I.D., 10th Mountain Division.
I don't care what you did or where you went in Vietnam, because that has little relevance here.

These aren't insurgents, they are native peoples who have been doing their best to protect themselves from corrupt governments encroaching on their land.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the jungle combat in Vietnam primarily consisted of insurgents loyal to the vietcong group staging ambushes with comparatively low-tech armaments and traps/mines. Most of them were farmers and villagers, not native peoples from tribes.

This is a group of native people using largely peaceful resistance to make their cause known and to keep the corrupt government forces at bay; if they used violence now, the government would gain the upper hand by making them look like crazy savages with propaganda and other such slanderous strategies.
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  #9  
Old 02-14-2012, 10:38 PM
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Apparently you have never learned about the Montanyards have you. They are a"Native People" as you put it, who lived up in the Highlands, who taught those of us fortunate enough to spend time with them, some really neat low tech stuff to use against the Vietnamese. You see, if you go back far enough, the Vietnamese came down from the north, played the "White Oppressors" against the Montanyards, (the "Indians" if you please). The Montanyards have NEVER forgotten this, and to this day, even AFTER the Vietnam war, still do hit and run attacks on Vietnamese Army units.
As far as including the farmers and villagers in with those from the cities, that is where your not giving a damn about the where and when of the Vietnam war puts you in poor stead. A lot of these "Villages" that you speak of, were nothing more than eight or ten glorified huts in the midst of some fields that the village CHIEFTAN, (Sounds Native to ME), ruled unless the VC said otherwise.
When you got out of the cities, most of Vietnam was nothing but "Native Peoples". You can not give a damn if you choose, but I was THERE, I lived with the Montanyards for two months, while you at best just read about it in some book. I could teach you about what REALLY happened there, and what had been brewing there for thousands of years, but I know, you don't care.
Consider yourself "corrected".

Last edited by Niri Te; 02-14-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
Apparently you have never learned about the Montanyards have you. They are a"Native People" as you put it, who lived up in the Highlands, who taught those of us fortunate enough to spend time with them, some really neat low tech stuff to use against the Vietnamese. You see, if you go back far enough, the Vietnamese came down from the north, played the "White Oppressors" against the Montanyards, (the "Indians" if you please). The Montanyards have NEVER forgotten this, and to this day, even AFTER the Vietnam war, still do hit and run attacks on Vietnamese Army units.
As far as including the farmers and villagers in with those from the cities, that is where your not giving a damn about the where and when of the Vietnam war puts you in poor stead. A lot of these "Villages" that you speak of, were nothing more than eight or ten glorified huts in the midst of some fields that the village CHIEFTAN, (Sounds Native to ME), ruled unless the VC said otherwise.
When you got out of the cities, most of Vietnam was nothing but "Native Peoples". You can not give a damn if you choose, but I was THERE, I lived with the Montanyards for two months, while you at best just read about it in some book. I could teach you about what REALLY happened there, and what had been brewing there for thousands of years, but I know, you don't care.
Consider yourself "corrected".
"Natives" or "Endemic Peoples" in this sense refers to societies that were living in a given location (often in a sustainable fashion) before more modern societies moved in. It has nothing to do with how people are living, or how their society, infrastructure, families, or living quarters are constructed.

Unless you can prove to me that the small villages there were of genotypes stretching back to endemic peoples, that statement holds nothing.

Now, lets look at what was said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
If they draw the Brazilian troops into the jungle, the natives will win every time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
What?

This isn't Avatar; actual armed military would just Napalm everything and be done with it.

Second, it said armed thugs, not military. This is just ******* farmers and illegal loggers trying to intimidate them.
Here I am pointing out that your statement was incorrect, citing Avatar as an example of somehwere it could have been drawn from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
[Raiden said,What?
This isn't Avatar; actual armed military would just Napalm everything and be done with it.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS AVATAR! Were you even ALIVE during VIETNAM?? You had an ill equipped force of mostly illiterates fighting a military that was armed with "rice paddy radar", airmobile howizers that fired "Beehive Rounds", TOTAL air superiority, ARMORED UNITS, NIGHT VISION, and the insurgents had small arms, and whatever boby traps they could make from the jungle. EXCEPT FOR THE ANIMALS, you have NO IDEA how close to Vietnam the battle scenes in Avatar were. You weren't BORN YET, and I WAS THERE, getting shot at.

As far as it being only being thugs and farmers sent in with the approval of the Government, the natives need to intimidate back.

Niri Te, U,S, Army retired, 7th I.D., 2nd I.D., 101st AIRBORNE, 4/77th ARA,
3/81st F.A., 97th I.D., 10th Mountain Division.
This...this is nearly incoherent; it has little to do with my reply.

What I said, in fewer words, was that:

1) The military is not attacking the Kayapo, yet you used the word "troops"

2) These are relatively peaceful endemic peoples, and they are not at war.

3) Actual military would have used destructive means to defoliate the forest to reach the Kayapo.

3) I cited Avatar as an example of what you had said about "Brazilian troops".

Again, the majority of what you said had little to do with what I had said before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
I don't care what you did or where you went in Vietnam, because that has little relevance here.

These aren't insurgents, they are native peoples who have been doing their best to protect themselves from corrupt governments encroaching on their land.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the jungle combat in Vietnam primarily consisted of insurgents loyal to the vietcong group staging ambushes with comparatively low-tech armaments and traps/mines. Most of them were farmers and villagers, not native peoples from tribes.

This is a group of native people using largely peaceful resistance to make their cause known and to keep the corrupt government forces at bay; if they used violence now, the government would gain the upper hand by making them look like crazy savages with propaganda and other such slanderous strategies.
This is my reply to that.

I am restating what I said about the endemic peoples of Brazil versus the insurgents of Vietnam; the insurgents were violent, sneaky, and were at war with the United States.

The Kayapo are a relatively peaceful people who are not at war, and are using protests and politics to get the things they need from Brazil. The insurgents would have fought the armed thugs that the farmers sent, but the Kayapo didn't; this is because they are two very different groups, in a very different time, facing very different scenarios.

If you combine this with what I had said before, you'll see that my original point(s) were, again:

1) The military are not attacking the Kayapo, yet you used the word "troops".

2) The Kayapo are a relatively peaceful tribe who are largely using protests and politics to recognition and to get what they need from the Brazilian government, not warfare or violence.

3) Actual military would have likely used destructive means to defoliate the forest to get to the Kayapo.

4) I cited Avatar as an example of what you said about troops, because that is more or less what happened in the movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
Apparently you have never learned about the Montanyards have you. They are a"Native People" as you put it, who lived up in the Highlands, who taught those of us fortunate enough to spend time with them, some really neat low tech stuff to use against the Vietnamese. You see, if you go back far enough, the Vietnamese came down from the north, played the "White Oppressors" against the Montanyards, (the "Indians" if you please). The Montanyards have NEVER forgotten this, and to this day, even AFTER the Vietnam war, still do hit and run attacks on Vietnamese Army units.
As far as including the farmers and villagers in with those from the cities, that is where your not giving a damn about the where and when of the Vietnam war puts you in poor stead. A lot of these "Villages" that you speak of, were nothing more than eight or ten glorified huts in the midst of some fields that the village CHIEFTAN, (Sounds Native to ME), ruled unless the VC said otherwise.
When you got out of the cities, most of Vietnam was nothing but "Native Peoples". You can not give a damn if you choose, but I was THERE, I lived with the Montanyards for two months, while you at best just read about it in some book. I could teach you about what REALLY happened there, and what had been brewing there for thousands of years, but I know, you don't care.
Consider yourself "corrected".
Again, this is nearly incoherent ranting.

I was never even talking about the endemic people of Vietnam, and you brought them up anyway; this makes no sense, as you nor I was ever comparing them to the Vietcong or the Kayapo.

Instead of directly addressing the point I made about your first statement (the one regarding Brazilian troops) you have dragged this far, far away and attempted to correct me on something I never even said; that's a great way to make a fool of yourself, but not a great way to debate/communicate with anyone.

I made a simple point about the first statement you made, and you ran off to far away tangents about things that, while related, happened in a different time and place and during a war; the current situation of the Kayapo is not this way.

Please consider the mistakes I have pointed out and use them to improve your forum communication skills.

Have a nice day.
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  #11  
Old 02-15-2012, 01:21 AM
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I think that such things are called 'war crimes' (as well as 'genocide' when applied internally to a specific group) and are not looked upon positively even by many absolute s***holes of countries. What is happening here is NOT actually action against them, but failure to take action against unaffiliated people doing (illegally). That''s a different issue.

Nothing any specific person has done gives then sole right to comment on something.

Everyone, please keep it on topic if you want this thread to remain open.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:38 AM
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I think low tech resistance can go a long way. Have you seen the movie "Coconut Revolution" - These people managed to fend off mining corporations to deforest and dig up their island for many years, making slingshot guns, using coconut oil to drive cars and sustain themselves, capturing weapons of the enemy,... very fascinating and I think more analogous to what is happening here than Vietnam. Its not an outright war yet there and I seriously doubt that any other government would look away if they use Napalm and Agent Orange on indigenous peoples in this century. If not looking away would be enough to stop it is another matter, but I think that they have much less violent yet still effective tactics these days to get indigenous peoples off the land if they want to. Just look at Australia. You just have to destroy the livelyhood of the population by depriving them of their ability to feed themselves, then you come in and offer them food and medicine, but only if they come to villages you build and then with medicine and food comes alcohol and drugs and within a few years you can claim that these people are all just lazy drunkards who beat their wives and start to move these people that now cannot resist anymore into settlements under the pretense to care for them. That is how it is done these days, not with Napalm.
So I guess to fend of armed thugs of farmers, miners, loggers - the indingeous people can (but should not have to!) use low tech armed resistance. Especially as the encroachment on their lands is not exactly legal. Against the government it would be a lot harder, especially because they are not actually fighting with armed thugs but with politics, buerocracy, propaganda, social engineering, deception and if all that fails with armed thugs - erm I meant to say police forces.
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Old 02-17-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auroraglacialis View Post
I think low tech resistance can go a long way. Have you seen the movie "Coconut Revolution" - These people managed to fend off mining corporations to deforest and dig up their island for many years, making slingshot guns, using coconut oil to drive cars and sustain themselves, capturing weapons of the enemy,... very fascinating and I think more analogous to what is happening here than Vietnam. Its not an outright war yet there and I seriously doubt that any other government would look away if they use Napalm and Agent Orange on indigenous peoples in this century. If not looking away would be enough to stop it is another matter, but I think that they have much less violent yet still effective tactics these days to get indigenous peoples off the land if they want to. Just look at Australia. You just have to destroy the livelyhood of the population by depriving them of their ability to feed themselves, then you come in and offer them food and medicine, but only if they come to villages you build and then with medicine and food comes alcohol and drugs and within a few years you can claim that these people are all just lazy drunkards who beat their wives and start to move these people that now cannot resist anymore into settlements under the pretense to care for them. That is how it is done these days, not with Napalm.
So I guess to fend of armed thugs of farmers, miners, loggers - the indingeous people can (but should not have to!) use low tech armed resistance. Especially as the encroachment on their lands is not exactly legal. Against the government it would be a lot harder, especially because they are not actually fighting with armed thugs but with politics, buerocracy, propaganda, social engineering, deception and if all that fails with armed thugs - erm I meant to say police forces.
This was a VERY well thought out reply, thank you for posting it. I have a question for you, can their low tech traps be lethal, to the person tripping them, or should they just limit themselves to destroying the construction equipment?
Back in the early seventies and early eighties, there were groups that used potentially violent methods to slow, and in certain local areas, stop clear cutting in the United States. The most insidious of these was "Tree Spiking". While it was demonized by many, it did not bring napalm, or armored columns down on these people. The reason for that was that they were dispersed among the general population.
Once the Brazilian Government ant the power industry get their way, and remove these people from their homeland, I think that they should disperse within the general population, and then, with unpredictable and random acts, make them pay with money and blood for what they did.
That will NOT get them back their pristine lands, but it WILL make the governmental, and industrial thugs think long and hard about doing it again.
It would be a case of their losing a battle, (their land), but winning a war, (stopping the wholesale destruction of the Amazon. please respond to my raising the question of the tribe changing their tactics and goals for a victory, Auoraglacialis, I am curious to hear what you think. When the Brazilian Government floods them out of their home, should they just roll over and die, or should they make make the organizations that did this to them pay dearly.
You see, Raiden, you CAN disagree with me WITHOUT "politely" calling me a functional idiot, without any speaking or debating skills. By the way, just because someone disagrees with you, and does so passionately, does not qualify their reply to you as a rant. I do not deny your right to disagree with me, but your accusatory stance marks you out to be the one who needs to bone up on their ability to debate in a more civil manner.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:07 AM
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Chief Raoni does not want violence he wants to avoid it at all resonable costs, the best weapon the Kayapo people have is global presure on the goverment of Brazil and I can almost guarantee the so called crooked ranchers and settlers have far deeper roots then we are told , they are posably trying to bait the Kayapo into an action much like the RDA in avatar that labeled the Navi so called "terrorists" after they tryed to defend there land there are mind games being played that will likey end very badly for the kayapo if the root of the conflict is not called to light on the world stage.

Last edited by allroock123; 03-19-2012 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:27 AM
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If Chief Raoni wishes to avoid any form of violence at all costs, than those of us that are trained in, and more inclined to the use of martial force MUST obey HIS wishes. It is HE who is Chief of his people.
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