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Old 05-02-2010, 01:55 PM
Dreaming Of Pandora's Avatar
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Default Strenght in numbers: Why ToS?

Hey Forum,

This is my first post here and it might just get me hated here already in ToS but here goes.

I've been a member of AF since the beginning of January and am a loyal member to that forum.

I just want to make clear that I have no problem at all with people who have left AF over the layout change and have come here instead. The skin change was by far the darkest time in AF and anyone who was around for that would understand that we didnt look like 'true' Avatar fans during then. All the idealism about understanding and loving one another became irrelevant for the couple of days during the rather nasty debates about the skin change. I wouldnt blame any of you for not wanting to stay in AF.

During this dark era I was invited by one of your own (Tudhalyas), I would've taken him up on this offer but I decided the continuity of AF was more important than leaving for a forum skin.

Why? Strenght in numbers.

Is two less-active forums really better than one big forum where all our friends are in one place, where we can have it like the 'good ol' days', and generally enjoy Avatar as a family?

Over time, both these forums are gonna lose members because there's gradually more members going to ToS but ToS isnt active enough to keep members active in it.

So why move? Why thin ourselves out amongst two forums? Werent the times when we were all in one big forum the best? Is a background image really that important?

Recently AF went under another big change, for the better! They've introduced a Default layout for people who cant stand the older skins, that's a reason to come back. Lon is currently bringing in new features and is also organizing a meeting between James Cameron and AF members (not entirely sure about ye).

This is why I dont get why people stay here, is it better here? For what reasons? Are the two forums all that different now? Personally I dont see the difference (apart from some good members we lost to this place).

Some people say ToS is more "Avatary", how exactly and if there's a good reason I could forward your ideas to Lon.

Everyone has their reasons for being here, I may not know exactly what these are but I respect it nonetheless. I dont see the end of these two forums being a good one, I see it more as a gradual seeping away of members from both sites (because neither will become active enough to retain members). The more regular members from both sites in one place, the better and more enjoyable it will be.

The unification of ToS and AF (there's actually a group for this on AF!) is the best solution, I feel. Some of my friends left AF for here and it hasnt been the same since, and Im definitely not the only one who feels this sadness.

We need you back.

Obviously Im not expecting the majority here to agree with me (ye wouldnt be here otherwise) and I will respect the answers you give me (as long as they're nice )

I See you all,

Eywa ngahu,

Chris

Last edited by Dreaming Of Pandora; 05-02-2010 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:05 PM
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To me, the background and the theme were never the main issue. They were a catalyst, it started things happening, but it would have happened eventually.
You've been there as long as I have... Look back and honestly tell me, do you think people there have changed or not? AF is less understanding, less close. When I joined, a large part of the reason was because I was really losing it with PAD. I still depend on others to keep me going. I just wasn't getting that from AF any more, which was causing problems for me. Really, Lon can run AF as he wants since it's his site, but some of the changes he was making were, in my opinion, badly thought out, badly implemented and badly reacted to. When it takes an entire thread full of negative responses to get any kind of change or compromise, you know it's not going well. But the truth is, I still felt loyal to AF, and it was really hard doing what I had to, but AF was no longer that special place to me.

People saying how ToS is more Avatar, well, we look more like the original theme, I guess, but also, I think the main part is it coming from a smaller, closer community.

As for unification, sorry, but I can say this: It's not going to happen. We're too different. Different sites, run differently, different styles, different ways and feels. Anyway, what would such a 'unification' involve? You saying 'go back to AF and forget what you accomplished here'? I think not. That's not a unification at all. It will never happen. Personally, I wouldn't even consider it on equal terms. ToS is far too important to me. I NEED ToS, and I know I'm not the only one. I really don't want to think about how I'd be otherwise. People here are my friends, but more than that, like a family. We all help each other, we understand and support each other when we're feeling down, we share the good times, we listen. It's like what, to me, AF used to be like and has lost.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:10 PM
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I was thinking the same thing, then i joined this forum I will still be on Avatar Forums mainly... but i wish some of the people who used to frequently post in Avatar Forums (now here) would come back Not only that but this place has been up and running for a while now, and the people came here to leave the BS on Avatar forums right? So I have this feeling that if a noob like me joins, the people who have been here for a while start to think "Oh ****, more people coming, it's going to become a **** fight" thats why i wont be active here as much as Avatar Forums. Besides, i will never leave Avatar forums.

BTW i must say, I LOVE the layout of this forum alot more, mainly the back ground because its so beautiful, but also because everything is so much more simple and there are no ads.

Last edited by tm20; 05-02-2010 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
To me, the background and the theme were never the main issue. They were a catalyst, it started things happening, but it would have happened eventually.
You've been there as long as I have... Look back and honestly tell me, do you think people there have changed or not? AF is less understanding, less close. When I joined, a large part of the reason was because I was really losing it with PAD. I still depend on others to keep me going. I just wasn't getting that from AF any more, which was causing problems for me. Really, Lon can run AF as he wants since it's his site, but some of the changes he was making were, in my opinion, badly thought out, badly implemented and badly reacted to. hen it takes an entire thread full of negative responses to get any kind of change or compromise, you know it's not going well. But the truth is, I still felt loyal to AF, and it was really hard doing what I had to, but AF was no longer that special place to me.

People saying how ToS is more Avatar, well, we look more like the original theme, I guess, but also, I think the main part is it coming from a smaller, closer community.

As for unification, sorry, but I can say this: It's not going to happen. We're too different. Different sited, run differently, different styles, different ways and feels. Anyway, what would such a 'unification' involve? You saying 'go back to AF and forget what you accomplished here'? I think not. That's not a unification at all.
Thanks for the feedback!

Well unification was a long-shot, this thread is really more me trying to understand why people are here rather than AF. Im just curious about ToS but I still feel uniting would be better (obviously the members here disagree).

I'll have to lurk around here more to get a better understanding of what this place is like.

Thanks again for the reply
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:14 PM
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I understand your concern, and I will try to reply to this post as good as I can.

First of all - the founding of ToS was not all about the layout change - FAR from it. The reasons that the feeling of community started to disappear was because of misunderstandings, of small, stupid things - Lon could have been more active and involved, but the main problem lied in misunderstandings.

But regardless the past, let's look at the situation we have right now. We have two forums that are drastically different. And I am NOT talking about looks now. ToS is a forum that is much smaller, and that is a GOOD thing in this case. Everyone knows everyone, and can share really deep things with each other.

"Strength in numbers" does not really apply here - when an internet community becomes too large, things might get worse, instead of better.

We have our strength in closeness and friendship - not numbers.


And the two forums are to drastically different for a "unification". Again, not talking about looks. The forums are run in two fully different ways, and again, ToS is much smaller. Members know each others really closely here, something that is not always possible in a community of 3000 active users.

Simply put - we could not simply merge AF with for example Naviblue. Why? Because the two communities are too different, a unification leads to nothing good. It is the same thing here - ToS is a smaller, closer community, and AF is a larger, broader and vaster community.

And here is my point - sometimes a split like this actually is NECESSARY when a community grows in size to the point where some members wants a smaller community. And that's what happened.

I hope you find this reply useful.

Eltu
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eltu View Post
I understand your concern, and I will try to reply to this post as good as I can.

First of all - the founding of ToS was not all about the layout change - FAR from it. The reasons that the feeling of community started to disappear was because of misunderstandings, of small, stupid things - Lon could have been more active and involved, but the main problem lied in misunderstandings.

But regardless the past, let's look at the situation we have right now. We have two forums that are drastically different. And I am NOT talking about looks now. ToS is a forum that is much smaller, and that is a GOOD thing in this case. Everyone knows everyone, and can share really deep things with each other.

"Strength in numbers" does not really apply here - when an internet community becomes too large, things might get worse, instead of better.

We have our strength in closeness and friendship - not numbers.


And the two forums are to drastically different for a "unification". Again, not talking about looks. The forums are run in two fully different ways, and again, ToS is much smaller. Members know each others really closely here, something that is not always possible in a community of 3000 active users.

Simply put - we could not simply merge AF with for example Naviblue. Why? Because the two communities are too different, a unification leads to nothing good. It is the same thing here - ToS is a smaller, closer community, and AF is a larger, broader and vaster community.

And here is my point - sometimes a split like this actually is NECESSARY when a community grows in size to the point where some members wants a smaller community. And that's what happened.

I hope you find this reply useful.

Eltu
Thanks for the reply

I understand that forums can get too big. I remember trying out Mass Effect forums and each contribution you make to a thread gets lost in a sea of posts.

Glad to know it's not about the forum skin that's the reason behind the split.

Thanks Eltu
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:18 PM
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I think I joined AF too late in the day to feel any loyalty towards it, and when I take a look back at it I am struck by two things that make me prefer (and exclusively frequent) ToS:

1. The style- ToS is really elegant and clean by comparison. There isn't the visual noise, it's just one column, running down the centre of my screen, and I like that.

2. AF 'feels' impersonal when I look at it now. This could be down to my arriving there quite late, but I don't get any sense of belonging, as I do somewhat here.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:44 PM
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I can see what you're saying completely and to an extent I have to say I agree.

Splitting the userbase across two forums may be an odd idea, but I see no reason for hostility or bitterness between the two anyway. They are just two forums with different feels that support the same love for Avatar. There are no complaints that Na'viblue and AF exist side-by-side... I understand that this is easy to say given the circumstances under which ToS was created, but it's still esentially the same situation. I will refer back to the often used sentence "there is nothing stopping you from being on both", something that I and many other users here are.

To avoid adding any more fuel to the fire, I will simply state my reason for being here. I, personally, feel that the attitude over at AF has deteriorated over the past few months. The discussions became largely irrelevant, some were just plain crude. I admit, there are still a number of very, very good discussions going on over there and people who need support and care, but they seem to be ever-increasingly more difficult to find, yet here somehow the content seems somwhat more cohereant and - to put it bluntly - more interesting.

I also feel that what we have here is a family run by a family. It pains me to say this, but to me AF now feels more like a business, not a place where people can go for some honest discussion and support. This may be because I haven't been over there posting for quite a while now so I might be completely wrong, the atmosphere may be returning to what it once was, but the atmosphere I speak of is something we already have here.

There is also the obvious layout issue too. I find this layout so much easier to navigate and I came to love it, (This being the first forum I have ever been on properly.) and to lose it was difficult and confusing. The prior points, however are far, far more important to my being here than a visual difference.

Please don't misunderstand me, i'm not 'bashing' AF or any of it's members and i'm not excluding myself from AF, I just prefer it here.

Let me finish by saying this will gain you absolutely no hate from me, you are simply expressing an opinion as many have done. You are completely entitled to you think.

Fkeu'itan.
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Last edited by Fkeu'itan; 05-02-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:53 PM
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Thanks for the replies guys!

It is true that for some reason this place has got warmth to it (Idk it just does).

I've heard that here have coined AF users as the 'Sky People' and users here as the 'Na'vi'. Whether these rumours are true or not it doesnt matter but as long as stuff like this continues, the rift between the two forums will get bigger.
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Old 05-02-2010, 02:54 PM
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Where can I begin? Hm:
-Trolls can run rampet
I have alot of experience with the beginning days of AF. It was a home away from home and it was something of a piece of heaven that we were blessed with. We had it good for awhile but than the change in management and site design mentally and physically changed. A site ran on passion was exchanged for a billfold and unfortunate situations the original admins had. When Lon took control, he was the only one man army with any kind of control in the forum. I know their were some smaller admins with the power to kick and ban, but they were designated into certain sections of the forum (Art section, Avatar Related section, etc.). These admins didn't know what to do because when a new person takes the throne, you can't act until someone gives you duties. You can do your job as usual and could possibly get fired because you did something without his permission. I can recall some Admins who wanted to stay with Lon. I don't know what happened but it got ugly and the separation took place. I was skeptical at first, and trying to figure out this whole AF mess. It hit me that the community was going haywire because of the incoming trolls that were constantly hatting on Avatar and the members of the community. Shear size, I think, is a bad thing to have if you just want to enjoy your neighbor's company.
-Small Community>Big Community
When a forum is too big, not everyone knows what's going down. Everyone doesn't get a question and the thread becomes a flame war. I will not want that for ToS, nor did I want that for AF. The first sign of that equaled a nail in the coffin.
-Friends
Alot of my friends who held me to a certain kind of esteem decided to make a group and give it a try to have a small community within a group, in the AF forum itself. We had a good time but I think we didn't have alot of topics surfing through our minds the amount of topics were few, but I didn't care for the quantity of threads. We had good points and built an even closer bond with that small group. I even lost someone real special to me at AF, mostly out of isolation, so any kind of move away from AF was a thought of desertion. Long story short, changing was difficult but with the help and support of friends, we made the right decision to go to ToS, where we could flourish. And we have. Things have never been better.
---------------------------
There are too many good things to add on why this place is better than AF. Sure, the separation was a rip in everyone's souls but luckily we recovered. I will not want a merge, and I strongly encourage that no such thing happens.

I'm a local here, and I don't want any unnecessary change.
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:00 PM
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Dreaming of Pandora, I have not seen that particular analogy used and would be strongly against it if I did.
As people have said, this is a different place. You have felt that already in the short few hours you have been registered.
And we by no means think "Oh ****, more people coming, it's going to become a **** fight" when new users of users from AvF join (@tm20)

Also, Dreaming of Pandora, I love your avatar
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred Tsahaylu View Post
Dreaming of Pandora, I have not seen that particular analogy used and would be strongly against it if I did.
As people have said, this is a different place. You have felt that already in the short few hours you have been registered.
And we by no means think "Oh ****, more people coming, it's going to become a **** fight" when new users of users from AvF join (@tm20)

Also, Dreaming of Pandora, I love your avatar
Yeah by the looks of it, it's probably just rumours.

Oh and thanks for the compliment ^^.

Im also curious how everyone has the 'Tree of Souls' title in their sigs (including yours). I've looked around Photoshop and google images and couldnt find either the font(s) or png. image. Any help guys?
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:09 PM
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Here you go:

Tree Of Souls Resources.

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Old 05-02-2010, 03:12 PM
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Niice

I'll add that to my sig soon.
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Old 05-02-2010, 03:23 PM
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What he said. I like to see other members from AvF coming to see ToS, and see what we're doing here. I won't be going anywhere near AvF, That default skin just makes the forum....not Avatar anymore. Its just a forum with Avatar subjects. Meh. I love ToS, and I will be staying here. I just don't want any bad blood between the two forums, people should be able to come and go as they please.
Oel ngati kameie.

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I want to use the ToS PSD, but it says its been deleted! HALP?
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