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Old 05-03-2010, 04:47 AM
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Just a link to a recent blog I wrote that you guys might find interesting.

While a lot of tribes survive(d) in the wild, the majority of people on Earth couldn't. Only a portion of the Earth is naturally lush enough to support a sustainable hunter-gatherer society. Pandora, on the other hand, is nearly fully (barring the poles) covered with thick, fertile forest. Desert/tundra/other naturally barren regions led people to develop agriculture, and later civilization. That's not even including other Human/Earthly shortcomings like disease, the general weakness of the human body, and darkness at night - problems which are nonexistent on Pandora.

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Old 05-03-2010, 07:41 AM
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We could make it, but only if we would give up some factors that are leading our artificial life.

Very interesting, irayo ma tsmukan
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:09 AM
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That would be good, but you didn't mention human nature. We satrted stockpiling for those reasons, but continued to go over the required amount by greed. Thinking we could get something better for ourselves by getting more. This led to specialized classes, starting the isolation of people. Dividing us and making us compete against eachother for power, still driven by greed. Then science came, wanting to know everything so you could control it. Most of society today is the result of greed.

Few people in positions to do it would bioengieneer it unless it was profitable.
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[Today 11:06 PM] tallbluewanderer: logic must give way to AVATAR


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Old 05-03-2010, 03:41 PM
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It's a good idea, I really wish it could happen...
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:46 PM
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I agree and disagree. I agree that we have to use our science knowledge to correct our mistake on Earth.
But I think, it's more the human way to evolve who turn us weaker then Na'vi. If we never have try to evolve lazily by technology, human body will probably evolved more strong to survive.
And why we need to build farm is probably because we are over populated for our planet and this over population is again because of the human wrong way to be.

It's because the human is lazy that turn bad.

This is what i think.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:49 AM
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looking over it again, that is the longest word in a thread title i have ever seen.
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[Today 11:06 PM] tallbluewanderer: logic must give way to AVATAR

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Old 05-04-2010, 05:13 AM
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OK finally read your article and while it does have some valid points there quite a few problems:


1. The Na'vi language has names for illness or disease so it cannot be true that they never suffer illnesses and the reason why we probably don't see any birth defects is because most likely they just abandon imperfect newborn children to the jungle. Yes I am talking about infanticide of those that do not meet their survival criteria, sounds horrendous from a moral and ethical point of view but from a bare bones survival point of view it does make sense.

2. There is no way we could possibly bio-engineer immunity against all possible pathogens but they could make bodies heal faster and definitely become stronger, I see no need to be taller though nor to make one;s skin blue.


3. The movie Avatar was never about starting a crusade to get rid of all technology and go back to live in caves as many all over have mistakenly assumed.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
1. The Na'vi language has names for illness or disease so it cannot be true that they never suffer illnesses and the reason why we probably don't see any birth defects is because most likely they just abandon imperfect newborn children to the jungle. Yes I am talking about infanticide of those that do not meet their survival criteria, sounds horrendous from a moral and ethical point of view but from a bare bones survival point of view it does make sense.
IIRC it says in the Survival Guide that there is no (or little) disease on Pandora (something to do with the plants). If there is disease it is probably the occasional infected wound or parasite. And even then, they probably recover a lot quicker than humans would. The Na'vi don't suffer from things like the common cold/flu, and aren't dropping dead en masse due to things like plagues.

Given the advanced biology of Pandora, I bet the rates of birth defects are close to, if not zero. The Na'vi are much more evolved than humans

Quote:
2. There is no way we could possibly bio-engineer immunity against all possible pathogens but they could make bodies heal faster and definitely become stronger, I see no need to be taller though nor to make one;s skin blue.
Again, while a few diseases might slip under the radar, we should have the ability to bio-engineer away the majority of diseases like most bacterium, viruses, and genetic disorders (scientists believe we might be able to do that within our lifetimes!).

Being taller would probably benefit humanity (I'm short, so I guess I'm biased), because, well, it would extend the benefits of being tall to more people. Obviously not Na'vi height (that would be uncomfortable on Earth), but maybe increasing the average height to the high 6' to low 7'. Though I wouldn't mind having a tail, for the obvious performance benefits (plus they look cool).

LOL, I don't know how many people would go for being blue (I would, but I digress), but we could increase the effectiveness of melanin to increase vitamin D production, as well as further reduce the risk of skin cancer.

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3. The movie Avatar was never about starting a crusade to get rid of all technology and go back to live in caves as many all over have mistakenly assumed.
Depends on who you ask. A lot of people in the transhumanist community thought it had a strong transhumanist message.

James Cameron's Avatar is about Transhumanism | Second Tense

I personally feel it criticizes an overuse of technology. Look at humans today, we're soft. We live in climate-controlled, secure shelters, eat prepared food from the grocery store or resturaunts, and can go days without walking a mile. Honestly, it would be a disaster if a massive solar storm hit, no one would be able to survive. A little more nature would do us good IMO, we could use a little sculpting as a species.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:38 AM
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I'd love to be taller and blue. This isn't just about improving physically, it's about people taking their ideal form.

I agree about the transhumanism, I think. I know I now realise that it's what I want...
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
IIRC it says in the Survival Guide that there is no (or little) disease on Pandora (something to do with the plants). If there is disease it is probably the occasional infected wound or parasite. And even then, they probably recover a lot quicker than humans would. The Na'vi don't suffer from things like the common cold/flu, and aren't dropping dead en masse due to things like plagues.
.

As I recall what survival guide states it that Pandora nullifies Terran born viruses and pathogens, not that there not any illnesses common amongst the Na'vi. If the Na'vi were born absolutely perfect they would be immortal or live a million years each. They had a time of great sorrow we have no idea if was war or a natural disaster or a plague.


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Given the advanced biology of Pandora, I bet the rates of birth defects are close to, if not zero. The Na'vi are much more evolved than humans
That doesn't mean it cannot happen or that is as low as you claim in fact we have no clue if it's a result of the Na'vi discarding imperfect infants to the jungle. But I'll admit the ratio of genetic deviations are probably lower I mean when we look at the number of people that are overall born and we compare those that are born with no crippling mental or physical retardation or both vs those that do, nature does seem to have some sort of filter to sort it all out as best as possible, in their case that filter is probably better. And it is because they are so evolved and advanced that I think they would be able to breathe in Earth's current atmosphere and even adapt to the planet's gravity. Their bones and muscles would in fact increase and toughen up as a result.


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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Again, while a few diseases might slip under the radar, we should have the ability to bio-engineer away the majority of diseases like most bacterium, viruses, and genetic disorders (scientists believe we might be able to do that within our lifetimes!).
And again the only sure way to do that is to boost the human body natural defense system so that it can attack any illnesses as effectively as the Na'vi can, but they are not totally free of illnesses
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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
in their world either.

Being taller would probably benefit humanity (I'm short, so I guess I'm biased), because, well, it would extend the benefits of being tall to more people. Obviously not Na'vi height (that would be uncomfortable on Earth), but maybe increasing the average height to the high 6' to low 7'. Though I wouldn't mind having a tail, for the obvious performance benefits (plus they look cool).
Performance benefits? Unless you plan to hop around trees like a hollering monkey there really would not be any.

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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
LOL, I don't know how many people would go for being blue (I would, but I digress), but we could increase the effectiveness of melanin to increase vitamin D production, as well as further reduce the risk of skin cancer.
While I would aprove genetic treatment for people like Albinos etc.

I'm deeply concerned about unforeseen side effects and problems arising from the intense and extreme genetic manipulation you are suggesting.


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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Depends on who you ask. A lot of people in the transhumanist community thought it had a strong transhumanist message.

James Cameron's Avatar is about Transhumanism | Second Tense
Funny considering it was all mainly about the good giant aliens vs the evil humans for the most part I did not see any such message.


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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
I personally feel it criticizes an overuse of technology. Look at humans today, we're soft. We live in climate-controlled, secure shelters, eat prepared food from the grocery store or resturaunts, and can go days without walking a mile. Honestly, it would be a disaster if a massive solar storm hit, no one would be able to survive. A little more nature would do us good IMO, we could use a little sculpting as a species.
That's not true that no one one would be able to survive, many would not but many many others would as well. If that were the case everybody in New Orleans should have perished since no survival instincts or skills are any more present as you claim.

And speak for yourself my wheels on this Earth is a Bike on which I got to work and wherever I need to go and if the distance is short I walk it too, I know some people take a car just to go to the corner, but just FYI I'm not those people!
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:10 AM
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As I recall what survival guide states it that Pandora nullifies Terran born viruses and pathogens, not that there not any illnesses common amongst the Na'vi. If the Na'vi were born absolutely perfect they would be immortal or live a million years each. They had a time of great sorrow we have no idea if was war or a natural disaster or a plague.
IIRC times of great sorrow are theorized to have been wars. After all, what good could Toruk Makto do against pathogens. TM was a means to unify battling clans and end the conflict.

Though on the off chance that times of great sorrow are plagues, the fact that there were only five in the entire history of the Na'vi still speaks in their favor. How many epidemics have we had?

Quote:
That doesn't mean it cannot happen or that is as low as you claim in fact we have no clue if it's a result of the Na'vi discarding imperfect infants to the jungle. But I'll admit the ratio of genetic deviations are probably lower I mean when we look at the number of people that are overall born and we compare those that are born with no crippling mental or physical retardation or both vs those that do, nature does seem to have some sort of filter to sort it all out as best as possible, in their case that filter is probably better. And it is because they are so evolved and advanced that I think they would be able to breathe in Earth's current atmosphere and even adapt to the planet's gravity. Their bones and muscles would in fact increase and toughen up as a result.
I'm sure a few genetic problems might slip by every once in a while, but the facts don't lie, the rate of genetic problems in the Na'vi are substantially lower than humans. Better biology plays the major role, but I'm sure a lack of dirty technology and unhealthy, processed food also plays a role. People who lead healthy lifestyles have lower rates of genetic disorders (and all disorders). We could genetically engineer much of the remaining risk away.

Humans can acclimate to different environments, too, but the Na'vi can probably do it better/quicker, though.

Quote:
And again the only sure way to do that is to boost the human body natural defense system so that it can attack any illnesses as effectively as the Na'vi can, but they are not totally free of illnesses
Performance benefits? Unless you plan to hop around trees like a hollering monkey there really would not be any.
What about people in sports? Most physical activities would benefit from a tail. Imagine how much easier it would be to keep balance on bikes or boards with a tail helping you. Not to mention a lot of people see aesthetic value in tails.

Quote:
While I would aprove genetic treatment for people like Albinos etc.

I'm deeply concerned about unforeseen side effects and problems arising from the intense and extreme genetic manipulation you are suggesting.
Well right now genetic modification can be hit-or-miss. It will get better in the future, though. Through better computing technology we could simulate our experiments, to make sure they are perfected before entering the real world. Advances in the field of chemistry and nanotechnology would also help us perfect DNA synthesis base pair for base pair.

Quote:
Funny considering it was all mainly about the good giant aliens vs the evil humans for the most part I did not see any such message.
In the eye of the beholder I guess.

Quote:
That's not true that no one one would be able to survive, many would not but many many others would as well. If that were the case everybody in New Orleans should have perished since no survival instincts or skills are any more present as you claim.
By "no one" I obviously didn't mean the entire world would drop dead, of course a lot of people would survive. People who remain physically fit or do a lot of outdoor activity would have the greatest chance of surviving. Yet at the same time, how many people don't live that lifestyle? Like I said, modern living has made us soft. While a lot of people would manage to toughen up in a survival situation, a lot also wouldn't.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:54 AM
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I'm sure a few genetic problems might slip by every once in a while, but the facts don't lie, the rate of genetic problems in the Na'vi are substantially lower than humans. Better biology plays the major role, but I'm sure a lack of dirty technology and unhealthy, processed food also plays a role. People who lead healthy lifestyles have lower rates of genetic disorders (and all disorders). We could genetically engineer much of the remaining risk away.

Humans can acclimate to different environments, too, but the Na'vi can probably do it better/quicker, though.
Not really we could never acclimate to breathing in their atmosphere unaided. You know I don't know if anyone noticed but when the Sampsons thre in the gas canisters in the hometree to try to disperse the Na'vi, the Na'vi remained largely unbothered which did not surprise me at all, since their bodies obviously filter out the noxious stuff in their own atmosphere.



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What about people in sports? Most physical activities would benefit from a tail. Imagine how much easier it would be to keep balance on bikes or boards with a tail helping you. Not to mention a lot of people see aesthetic value in tails.
WTF? Are you kidding me? As a regular bike rider myself I would see such a thing as a hindrance. I can easily imagine the dam thing getting tangled in the spokes of the biker's rear wheel, Yikes!

Likewise on a surfboard I imagine it would look pretty tasty to sharks and other big fish. I guess you'd invent a new sport Surf tail fishing I also imagine it would be painful as hell too...



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Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Well right now genetic modification can be hit-or-miss. It will get better in the future, though. Through better computing technology we could simulate our experiments, to make sure they are perfected before entering the real world. Advances in the field of chemistry and nanotechnology would also help us perfect DNA synthesis base pair for base pair.
We would need something like Quantum computers and true artificial intelligence to do what you ask, because not even the best computer model can take everything into account.

But the problem with AI is also worrying since there is no telling if once we create artificial life a la BattleStar Galactica that such artificial life and sentience won't turn on us. The problem is such a frightening possibility that even the most hopeful of futurists want to add a kill switch to any true AI just in case.

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By "no one" I obviously didn't mean the entire world would drop dead, of course a lot of people would survive. People who remain physically fit or do a lot of outdoor activity would have the greatest chance of surviving. Yet at the same time, how many people don't live that lifestyle? Like I said, modern living has made us soft. While a lot of people would manage to toughen up in a survival situation, a lot also wouldn't.
Well no one by definition does mean nobody hence someone saying "No one shall pass" etc.

I believe a lot of people that you think cannot make it could end up making it as well. The human spirit is something I've learned never to underestimate.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:05 AM
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Not really we could never acclimate to breathing in their atmosphere unaided. You know I don't know if anyone noticed but when the Sampsons thre in the gas canisters in the hometree to try to disperse the Na'vi, the Na'vi remained largely unbothered which did not surprise me at all, since their bodies obviously filter out the noxious stuff in their own atmosphere.
I'm refering to things on Earth, such as different altitudes, temperatures, and air pressures. Though I'm sure we could make it so that we can acclimate to changes quicker, cutting the time it takes to dive or climb mountains.


Quote:
WTF? Are you kidding me? As a regular bike rider myself I would see such a thing as a hindrance. I can easily imagine the dam thing getting tangled in the spokes of the biker's rear wheel, Yikes!

Likewise on a surfboard I imagine it would look pretty tasty to sharks and other big fish. I guess you'd invent a new sport Surf tail fishing I also imagine it would be painful as hell too...
LOL. Just hold it up like the Na'vi do when they ride Ikran and Pa'li. I think you'll change your mind when it saves you from a faceplant. Same thing for surfing, just hold it above the water.



Quote:
We would need something like Quantum computers and true artificial intelligence to do what you ask, because not even the best computer model can take everything into account.

But the problem with AI is also worrying since there is no telling if once we create artificial life a la BattleStar Galactica that such artificial life and sentience won't turn on us. The problem is such a frightening possibility that even the most hopeful of futurists want to add a kill switch to any true AI just in case.
We'll see what the future holds for this one. Hopefully we will be able to keep our AI under control. I wonder if it is possible to keep AI from understanding things like hate or greed? Will they eventually pick it up anyway?
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Old 05-06-2010, 07:32 AM
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I'm refering to things on Earth, such as different altitudes, temperatures, and air pressures. Though I'm sure we could make it so that we can acclimate to changes quicker, cutting the time it takes to dive or climb mountains.
OK when t comes to mountains it might interest you to know that people born in high altitude areas have more lung capacity than those born at sea level and keep in mind that there are limits to what you can change or not in a full grown human being as opposed to one that yet to be born, namely an embryo.

So while you could perhaps change skin color, tone, enhance muscle and bone mass etc. you cannot make a grown human being grow a tail or Donkey like ears, but you could do it to one yet to be born. Meaning you could design your kids from scratch a la Gattaca. But not yourself that way.


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LOL. Just hold it up like the Na'vi do when they ride Ikran and Pa'li. I think you'll change your mind when it saves you from a faceplant. Same thing for surfing, just hold it above the water.
You mean like Jake did with his Direhorse? (Oops!)

As I posted earlier growing a tail is not something you could possibly do to an already grown human, but you could design your kids to have one and that's where it gets dicey doesn't it. Do we have the right to fundamentally change and alter our offspring's physiology to suit what we think they should be?


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We'll see what the future holds for this one. Hopefully we will be able to keep our AI under control. I wonder if it is possible to keep AI from understanding things like hate or greed? Will they eventually pick it up anyway?
Did you ever read Frankenstein? The monster became a monster because he was dumped by his creator, now if we create artificial life and enslave it, treat it poorly and so on, you can bet being sentient they will resent it. That on top of the fact that once they are self aware and realize how far above humans they are they would ask why even serve them, it should be the other way around.

But anyway we are still a long way before we reach the so called singularity which how scientists refer to the exact time when machines become smarter than humans and thus artificial self aware lifeforms for all intended purposes.
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:41 AM
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OK when t comes to mountains it might interest you to know that people born in high altitude areas have more lung capacity than those born at sea level and keep in mind that there are limits to what you can change or not in a full grown human being as opposed to one that yet to be born, namely an embryo.
It's more the fact that more haemoglobin needs to be produced in the bloodstream as to capture more oxygen.

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You mean like Jake did with his Direhorse? (Oops!)

As I posted earlier growing a tail is not something you could possibly do to an already grown human, but you could design your kids to have one and that's where it gets dicey doesn't it. Do we have the right to fundamentally change and alter our offspring's physiology to suit what we think they should be?
I don't think we do. I want my kid to be 100% me and my partner.

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Did you ever read Frankenstein? The monster became a monster because he was dumped by his creator, now if we create artificial life and enslave it, treat it poorly and so on, you can bet being sentient they will resent it. That on top of the fact that once they are self aware and realize how far above humans they are they would ask why even serve them, it should be the other way around.

But anyway we are still a long way before we reach the so called singularity which how scientists refer to the exact time when machines become smarter than humans and thus artificial self aware lifeforms for all intended purposes.
This is a narrow view of how events could unfold, there are countless other possibilities.
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