"They live, Jake. Within Eywa." - so how exactly does this work? - Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:51 PM
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Default "They live, Jake. Within Eywa." - so how exactly does this work?

Ok so this thread has two main points. Everytime I ask two questions all answer only the first one and it's not worth making two topics so don't forget - 2 questions.


I was getting impression that all the "voodoo" was actually real and "measurable in the biology of the forest", as said by Grace. The entity, Eywa, is a consciousness created from all the trees and animals that connect to it, so the deity is not really something supernatural. When Grace is uploaded, I undestand that she is transfered into this network, but when Na'vi die, how do they get in there? Do they make tsahaylu with the tree of souls before dying so they can too be uploaded? It's kind of weird that even though it wants to seem so real, there is still something supernatural going on. I'm confused whether Eywa is meant to be a goddess or entity.


On the final battle, Eywa, as all of you know, sends all animals against the RDA attack to help the Na'vi, but how exactly does she do that? We've seen only two places where Na'vi can access the network of Eywa, and that is tree of souls and trees of voices. One would think that even animals would need to connect to receive the message, but that would mean either lots of other trees of voices or line-up of animals around ToV waiting for their turn on tsahaylu and daily traffic jams on the logs across surrounding water. Is this another supernatural thingy then?
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Ikran has received a telepathic message:

"let's bring the pain"

sender: Eywa
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Last edited by rasomaso; 06-06-2010 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:57 PM
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hmmm idk

as for the first question, i just dont plain know. the only thing i can think of is how do people who believe in the afterlife get there? There's no real answer for that.

maybe cuz the na'vi are somewhat more of an evolved species on Pandora and can think for themselves, (kinda like humans do) Eywa doesnt have the kind of control as she would over the animals, who have a somewhat lesser evolved brain and are more in tune with their environment, like what happens here on earth.

I think i totally just confused myself and made no sense. But i gave an attempt....thats gotta be worth something.....maybe....no?...ok then ^6
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:57 PM
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My theory is that for the minds of the Na'vi, it's more of a 'backup' than a transfer on death - their minds, their experiences become part of Eywa when they connect e.g. to a tree of voices, these memories then remain within the network after they die.

As for the ikran, the hammerheads, viperwolves and thanator in the final battle, that's harder to guess, I'd guess that they simply realised what was happening, rather than being directly controlled, they certainly seem to be intelligent enough.
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Old 06-06-2010, 10:09 PM
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I wrote extensively about this here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rasomaso View Post
I was getting impression that all the "voodoo" was actually real and "measurable in the biology of the forest", as said by Grace. The entity, Eywa, is a consciousness created from all the trees and animals that connect to it, so the deity is not really something supernatural. When Grace is uploaded, I undestand that she is transfered into this network, but when Na'vi die, how do they get in there? Do they make tsahaylu with the tree of souls before dying so they can too be uploaded? It's kind of weird that even though it wants to seem so real, there is still something supernatural going on. I'm confused whether Eywa is meant to be a goddess or entity.
I believe (and am convinced) it's an entity. I don't believe all Na'vi live in the sense of "living" within Eywa, their brains as they existed at death just continue on, though they aren't actually conscious. To quote (similar to what you said),
Quote:
The voices and communication between the Na'vi and their ancestors can only occur when a link-up between the Na'vi queues and the Tree of Souls (and other trees like it) is made. These vines were said to contain "memories" of the ancestors, not the ancestors themselves. The fact that they could "communicate" with them could be that the naturally occurring response given by the loved one could be what they hear when speaking with them, like the technology depicted in "Superman" and the sequels, where Jor-El has pre-programmed responses to any question, dialogue, or reaction given by his son.

The voices heard from the vines could be like sound bite recordings on any personal computer, only these voices could just be downloaded data from the brains of those who've passed on.

But there are other examples of true "intelligence" occupying the trees. It's true, most of the Na'vi probably die normally like we do, in any situation, whether it be old age, disease, murder, a wound, etc. But some Na'vi (important ones) may die at the foot of a sacred area, where they could have a similar "hook-up" from vine sources, like Grace and Jake had at the Tree of Souls. In some rare cases, Na'vi souls or psyches can be ingested into Eywa, thus making it possible for some Na'vi to virtually live forever, since their minds are supported through this global system of synaptic connections, regulated and controlled through the Tree of Souls (which I'm assuming there's only one that exists). A few have already said "Grace is alive", meaning her mind still functions in the Eywa system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasomaso View Post
On the final battle, Eywa as all of you know, sends all animals against the RDA attack to help the Na'vi, but how exactly does she do that? We've seen only two place where Na'vi can access the network of Eywa, and that is tree of souls and trees of voices. One would think that even animals would need to connect to receive the message, but that would mean either lots of other trees of voices or line-up of animals around ToV waiting for their turn on tsahaylu and daily traffic jams on the logs across surrounding water. Is this another supernatural thingy then?
Grace says that all forms of plant life, whether they be "sacred" places or just any other location, are all connected. The animal life, no doubt, has a link to this system, and can access it as well as the Na'vi. It may be possible to link to anything on Pandora indirectly, like when one is sleeping or resting. The roots of the trees and plants on Pandora have "10¹² connections", meaning if your queue is lying on the ground with the tendrils exposed to any source of plant life, you'd be accessing Eywa, directly or indirectly. To quote again,
Quote:
The fact that "Eywa" heard him might mean exactly that, but not necessarily because Eywa is an actual deity. If Eywa is rather just an extremely biologically advanced plant that can think like humans (possibly read minds when hooked to), then the "hearing of prayers" could just be an reaction of what information it has received. Since everything on Pandora is connected by way of an internal linkage system, including its inhabiting animal life, then this system can be notified and possibly commanded to preserve itself from death. In an article by Erkki Haukioja entitled "Plant defenses and population flucuations of forest defoliators: mechanism-based scenarios" talking about birch tree defense,
Quote:
"Plant defenses against herbivorous insects can be traced to three broad classes of plant compounds, and to the mechanisms which produce variations in their concentrations (Haukioja 2005)... The most recent explanation, still unfamiliar to many field ecologists, is that plants share few broad-scale but versatile defense cascades which orchestrate defenses, including the toxicity of secondary compounds, against numerous biotic and abiotic challenges."

--Page 314
Sounds a bit technical, but in so many words, birch trees possess a defense system where once one of the trees is attacked (preyed upon) by an insect, a chemical compound is released from the birch that the other birches pick up. This "warning scent" causes the other trees to "toughen up" their defenses with a toxin that'll ward off other insects. Two words: self-preservation. This is exactly what the Tree of Souls might've done. The difference is that this tree had connections to all other forms of life on Pandora, so a "warning" might've been sent to all about how the humans were about to destroy them. That's how the ikrans and angtsìk knew when and what to attack. Again two words: self-preservation.
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
My theory is that for the minds of the Na'vi, it's more of a 'backup' than a transfer on death - their minds, their experiences become part of Eywa when they connect e.g. to a tree of voices, these memories then remain within the network after they die.
I agree with this. All Na'vi connect to Eywa at least one in their lives, so this would act like a backup of all the experiences and thoughts to this point in their life. As shown in the film, they seem to bury their dead so maybe as soon an the touch the ground, dead or dying, Eywa connects through the vegitation like it does to Grace and so transfers all experiences and thoughts up to the point of death. Maybe if there are microbes or tiny creatures that are also connected to Eywa, these will consume the dead Na'vi body and transfer via this process. Hence the energy being returned.

In regards of the animals joining in the fight, this is a tougher one to explain. Eywa is everything, so regardless of if an animal every physically connects with its queue, it is still a part of Eywa so the individual animal would be aware of the plight with a kind of sixth sense as such. Like an intristic feeling the animal has when it feels its survival threatened. The animals on Eywa may also be social creatures so these feeling would be enhanced by each others presence and behaviours which triggered the stampede of all animals. Eywa knew what could happen when she connected to Jake, and also Grace. Eywa, feeling the deaths of so many creatures in a concentrated area would have know that something unnatural was occuring disrupting the balance of life and so a wave of panic went through all the animals within a given area which went in favour of the Na'vi and against the humans. Since the Na'vi were part of Eywa, the animals ignored them and went straight towards the infection of Pandora, the humans.
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:33 AM
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You know if you think about it Eywa is a really hoopy frood, just sort of chilling as a planet (moon), allowing people to live forever in a way.
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grif View Post
You know if you think about it Eywa is a really hoopy frood, just sort of chilling as a planet (moon), allowing people to live forever in a way.
... huh?
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:03 AM
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if you consider that our brains work on small amounts of electricity, then our thoughts and ideas are a form of energy, which can be stored in a big battery
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Old 06-09-2010, 07:50 AM
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Neytiri told Jake that 'energy is only borrowed and when we die, we have to give it back'. Imagine that Eywa/Pandora is a giant central brain, everything that lives on it and in it are extensions, cells, neural nodes that are connected to everything else on the planet. No matter what or who you are, once you are connected to another living entity, you are part of Pandora/Eywa.
Remember the woodsprites landing on him? Eywa recognized that Jake was special as soon as he set foot on the soil.
When you are dealing with a sentient entity as big as a planet... and as old... there's a lot more going on than simple thought processes and reactions to attack.
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Old 06-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Lord Duke the Baron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
... huh?
Urban Dictionary: A really hoopy frood
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