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Old 06-10-2010, 03:05 AM
Sėltsan'awpo's Avatar
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I found these two articles while browsing the web and I just NEED to hear your opinions about them.

TV Watchtower: Comparing Marvelous Worlds Of 'Alice,' 'Avatar'

To me it's just another person critising Avatar for no good reason. Not only that, but she COMPLETELY misinterpreted everything!*

"...proclaimed himself as ruler of the Na’vi." "Jake held onto the power granted him greedily."


Jake became the clan leader because Tsu'Tey died and not once did he abuse it in any way.

Also, I've seen Alice in Wonderland... Did not like.

And secondly:
'Avatar' merchandise strategy going long-term!

I kinda have mixed feelings about this. I remember reading a thread about what would Avatar be like if it became like Star Wars in the way of making random products just to cash in on it's popularity. So I really don't know :/

Anyways, thoughts? *
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:46 AM
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EDIT: might as well make a review.

Both films offered grand adventures in their own right. Alice fell down a rabbit hole and landed in Wonderland. Jake Sully took a cryogenic space nap to the outer fringes of space and awoke in a world more glorious than anything he had ever imagined. Alice was immediately embraced as the savior and champion of Wonderland; and, while Jake was initially reluctantly welcomed to learn the ways of the reclusive Na’vi, he too ultimately became the inadvertent savior of the Na’vi.
the Na'vi aren't reclusive. they were open before we started you know... destroying the world.

Jake, on the other hand -- intoxicated by the Na’vi life -- took control and proclaimed himself as ruler of the Na’vi. Alice conquered the enemy, but left ruling for those better suited. Jake relished his conquest and yielded nothing.
Jake didn't 'proclaimed himself as ruler', Tsu'tey allowed him back and then got killed.

In the end, both embraced the invitation to help free a foreign land from oppression and tyranny. But only Alice gave up the power bestowed upon her. Jake held onto the power granted him greedily.
how do you know this? the second movie kinda... hasn't come out yet. and if he is olo'eyktan, its cause Tsu'tey is not there.

So while both films were fairly well suited in terms of offering grand adventure, “Alice in Wonderland” is the clear winner as far as being the more suitable film for the entire family. “Alice” offered a story of a girl on the cusp of womanhood running away from an unexpected and unwanted marriage proposal. “Avatar” offered a story of a young man running away from his wheelchair bound existence.
Jake isn't 'running away'. he wasn't even supposed to be on Pandora. He was just pulled in cause his brother died.

Both were about one person leading a people to fight for their right to live free, but “Alice” did it with minimal bloodshed and loss of life. “Alice” was easily the family-friendly film over “Avatar’s” adult themes involving warfare with mass gunfire, explosions and sexual situations –- and thus was not intended for full family viewing.
True, but these days 'family-viewing' is more violent then when the original AiW came out.

In “Avatar,” there were many lives lost, including beloved characters with whom the audience bonded, such as Grace and Trudy, both killed engaging in battle with the humans. In “Alice,” there was no such loss of life. All of Alice’s new friends were accounted for in the end and the audience did not have to mourn unnecessarily.
It wasn't unnecessary, it gets the viewer in the mood for the battle. And what about Tsu'tey and Eytukan?

It is rather a relief to enjoy a major action film and not have to reach for a tissue. So many films feel the need to kill off characters, and beloved characters at that, to make the film feel more real. But filmmakers are forgetting one thing: When depicting fantasy films, it is not supposed to feel real.
umm... AVATAR was.

In fact, everything about “Alice in Wonderland” and “Avatar,” felt unreal. They were simply too beautiful and magical to be real. So there was no need to kill off the lead character’s friends which the audience liked just to ratchet up the emotional resonance.
i seem to recall a lot of people getting depressed because AVATAR was too real.

Plus, with both films already scheduled to be followed by sequels, it is frustrating to viewers who want their cherished characters to be in the next film.
the characters that did survive are cherished. wait, AiW is making a sequel?

One of the more glaring differences between the two films was the diametrically opposed paths that Alice and Jake Sully chose in the end. Both rescued their oppressed people; but Alice chose to return to her world and her people in the end -- Jake did not.
Jake did return to his people.

Jake rejected his human existence and chose to become one of the Na’vi permanently. He turned his back on his humanity and embraced life as an alien.
Hooray for Jake!!

Alice, on the other hand, took the wisdom gained from her experiences and embraced her human existence -– albeit on her own terms. It was off-putting to the audience when Jake chose to give up his human existence; whereas, we cheered for Alice’s growth in the strong young woman ready to take a stand for what she believed she should do with her life.
1: Jake was "ready to take a stand for what he believed he should do with his life.
2: why was it off-putting? who at that point wanted Jake to stay human?
Both Alice and Jake were lost people in the beginning of their journeys. Alice was indecisive about whether she should get married. Jake was not sure whether he wanted his military life back. Both just wanted to escape from the hard decisions they were faced with.
Jake knew he wanted his military life back. but a certain unable-to-walkness prevented that.his 'hard decision' was to go to Pandora.

So, in terms of life lessons, both Alice and Jake learned to be better people. They were no longer mindless followers, but fearless leaders. The difference being that Alice took what she learned and used it to shape the life she wanted back in her world. Jake ran away from his human existence and only took what he learned to integrate further into the lives of the Na’vi.
1. He didn't run away, he gave it up cause it was pointless and useless.
2. Hooray for Jake!!

Who was braver in the end? The person who returned to what they were running away from; or the person who kept running away. The sure winner is Alice, as she was clearly the stronger of the two. She was not a heralded champion in her world, but she was still willing to return and face the consequences of her decision to run away and to turn down a marriage proposal that her family was pushing upon her.
again, he wasn't running away. he had nothing else in his life so he decided to go somewhere.

“Alice” and “Avatar” both had political messages, but “Alice” was better at embedding it into the storyline so that it was not beating the audience over the head with it. “Avatar” very clearly wanted to address the ecological erosion of the Amazon forests and how corporate greed prevails over planet preservation.
well its a topic that needs to be addressed cause people ignore it.

“Avatar” was more focused on the political message than the person carrying it. Jake could have been anyone. He was the everyman who just wanted out of his life. “Avatar” wanted to remind the viewer acutely of the environmental exploitation themes, but “Alice” just wanted to tell the story of a young woman’s transition into adulthood.
no, if he was his brother if he hadn't died, that it would have had a VERY different ending. it did need to be Jake.

[insert love story stuff from AiW here cause i havn't seen it and therefore, cant reply to it]
However, in “Avatar,” the love story was again pushed upon the audience and seemed to be offered as justification for Jake abandoning his own kind. Jake fell in love with Neytiri. But it was always doubtful whether he was more in love with her than with the life living amongst the Na’vi offered. He admired her; he wanted to be like her; and he was attracted to her. But more than anything, he desperately wanted to shed his own life and be one of the Na’vi.
it was..? i hadn't noticed.

No matter how grand the created worlds were, one sure fire test about whether one film is better than another is it a film that you will buy and put in your DVD collection. As visually stunning as “Avatar” was, it was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. It did not bear repeating.
so the millions of viewings from repeat audiences, the top grossing film of all time, and the DVD and Blu-ray sales records were all different people? My second 10 viewings must have been in my mind then...

So, in the end, “Avatar” was a magnificent film, but it was constrained by its lack of vision and foresight. After all, Jake can only save the planet once. But Alice can return time and time again to play amongst the zany creatures of Wonderland.
he can? if anyones learned anything, its that James Cameron CAN make a sequel better than the first.

Last edited by Txum_kali'weya; 06-10-2010 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 06-10-2010, 04:18 PM
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Whoever that idiot is that wrote that comparison... didn't pay attention. Bravo for your comments on it Txum.
What they also forgot was that AiW was a childrens allegory book written almost a hundred years ago. It was very political and I don't recall reading anything about a battle. (But it was a very very long time ago).
Also... Lewis Carroll was a mathematician who apparently sucked on some hookah pipe or opium before coming up with that tale!'
I hate it when people 'review' a movie when it's more of a 'critique'. Here's the difference:
A review gives a balanced and intelligent breakdown of a film both plot and technical points.
A critique is the persons opinion on their feelings about the movie. Sometimes comparing it to other films.
Then there's the drivel you just quoted.
Someone who obviously was biased, and had not truly watched the film with a fully open mind.
If they were looking to compare 'family' movies, neither of those are suitable for children!
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:03 PM
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Alice in Wonderland is like its namesake- a wonderland of fantasy.

Want to wake up and see the real world? Avatar's the sad truth of human nature, albeit pushed forward a few hundred years and seen thru Cameron's mind, with SF well used in it.

Comparing the two? Well, I'd highly recommend a more rational comparison for the original writer of the review.. maybe something along the usage of graphics or what not, other than that its just comparing two entirely different movies.

Oh, and for you people out there, don't bother getting unhappy with biased reviews, it ain't worth the precious time and effort

Perspective is everything.
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:08 PM
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Wow, that review was quite rediculous.

I too say well done Txum for that excellent re-review (if you see what I mean. )

Yes, the reviewer's views on Jake being greedy were completely backwards and the less said about fantasy films' purpose supposedly being to feel unreal, the better in my opinion, but what got to me the most was the 'killing off the characters forces unnecessary mourning' thing...

That's just rediculous. It made the film ultimately more emotionally involving and drove a deeper love and cherishment for the characters. Clearly this person wants to only see films where everything is happy-cheery-funtime-land where nobody ever gets hurt and the 'goodies' always beat the 'baddies' by capturing them, giving them a slap on the wrists, saying "naughty people" and then skipping off into the sunset, 'Disney style'. Which is ok if you're looking for a completely mindless and impactless 2 hours of cinema, but if you actually want something deep and involving, that's not the way you achieve it...

(deep breaths, deep breaths...)

So yes, the review is completely rediculous and utterly one-sided. As for more merchandising, I really don't want that to happen. I don't want them to over-saturate the market and leave the experience feeling cheap and over-exploited. It would be very sad for that to happen. "Very sad only." (Sorry, couldn't resist )
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:34 PM
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Hoo f**k no, "'Avatar' merchandise strategy going long-term" I think this is just wrong. That wkill make drop the credibility of Avatar, now people will that wonderful movie only as a money factory.

What Txum_kali'weya have write proof that the person who write this article do not have understand, all his argues have been destroyed by Txum_kali'weya so easily. An other stupid media propaganda.
I plunge again and again, continuously, in an imaginary universe and wake up while realizing that this wonderful and exiting world will only exist in my head and heart.

Always believe in Pandora, Never be assimilate by this society!!
*̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ *̡͌l̡*
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:22 AM
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Well it's pretty disheartening for me to see someone comparing Alice In Wonderland with Avatar. First, they're two completely different films. Second, they're directed at two totally different general groups of people.

I happened to adore AiW, and Carroll was a brilliant writer who came up with a wonderfully magical tale that Disney completely misinterpreted and destroyed (and I'm referring to the old version). Anyone who says otherwise has clearly never read the books, or else doesn't understand them. Burton's version plays on Carroll's original intention so perfectly in his new "sequel-ized" version it's beyond me to describe.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:44 AM
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1st article: epic fail. ayskxawng...

2nd article: win. Do want moar!
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:42 PM
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Didn't realize Alice in Wonderland was supposed to have a political message to it... Must be one of those ridiculously 'deep' interpreted things that you have to want to see, then create excuses to try to prove it as a fact.

This wasn't a review- Obviously this person was simply more entertained by alice in wonderland and felt it necessary to voice their opinion about how (not) awesome it is.

Sorry lady, but I didn't see anybody returning to the theater 3,5, 10, or 15+ times to watch alice frolick about for 2 hours.
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Old 06-13-2010, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Boomachucka View Post
Didn't realize Alice in Wonderland was supposed to have a political message to it... Must be one of those ridiculously 'deep' interpreted things that you have to want to see, then create excuses to try to prove it as a fact.

This wasn't a review- Obviously this person was simply more entertained by alice in wonderland and felt it necessary to voice their opinion about how (not) awesome it is.

Sorry lady, but I didn't see anybody returning to the theater 3,5, 10, or 15+ times to watch alice frolick about for 2 hours.
^This. Although I thought Alice was indeed a good film (just finished watching it again, in fact) I still understand how much better Avatar was.

This is the problem with people: they compare movies with two totally different storylines and base their opinions of how much they liked one movie to how much "worse" another movie was by comparison. Usually they're back-to-back. This is what the guy was doing, and (regrettably) what many other people on AF and ToS were doing with Alice In Wonderland.

Also, I didn't sense any political message in AiW either. This guy takes waaaay across the boundries of what was intended; it's like when people said Tolkien's Lord of the Rings was allegory of World War II. He blantantly denied this comparison of course; it's unfounded discernment between the intended message and the imagination of one person's worldview that makes reviews like the one from "T.V. Watchtower" incredibly and unforgivably stupid.

Last edited by Woodsprite; 06-13-2010 at 06:37 AM.
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