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Old 01-31-2011, 11:12 PM
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Default Disregarding humanity worries me

I see alot of comments saying that they disregard humanity as a whole and saying the Na'vi are "Perfect". This worries me because if you put things into persective, when A person is so obseive about Avatar, they are disregarding themselves over something that is fiction (I know, I hate to admit it). I think the reason why is because of the plot of the film. A Human goes to and alien planet and learns about a fasinating culture and gives up his Human form to live like one of them. I think why people are hating humanity is because they think Jake becoming a na'vi justifies that Human life sucks, and Na'vi life is much better. The thing they miss, I think, is that Jake himself had no life left with no legs and his role being marine. He realized that his personality and cunning of a warrior would work in the Na'vi socity. What people also miss is that the scientics are left on Pandora. They have a life because they have intrest in the plants and animals and their role can be to help the degraded society on earth.

I might as well explain why I like being human and not disregard it as a whole.
I like to learn about science, arts, phlosophy of multiple religons and societies and intergate them into imagination. To have an Imagination that expands to unknown regains is the apex of being human.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:29 PM
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I don't hate humanity, I hate fascists, the small cadre that corrupts humanity.

I have my doubts about humanity sometimes, but events like what is currently happening in Egypt give me renewed hope. Afterall, as Mario Savio once said, the only way to get them to listen is to throw your body on the machine, and tell those who run it, that unless you are free, the machine will not run. People like Savio are what the Na'vi are based on. People like the Egyptians are what the Na'vi are based on.







I can't wait 'till it's my country's turn to jump the machine. I'll be first in line with a smile on my face.

On a side note, this whole thread seems so out of the blue. Where've you been seeing this on the forum?
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:40 PM
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I haven't seen a lot of "human sucks" posts lately, but I think I know what you mean.

I believe reason, however, is...

First, there are two extremes: The Na'vi and the Marines. Most people will find the Na'vi as a more perfect race. The way they live, how they respect each other and the environment etc. Then the marines... The marines are obviously depicted unfavorably. Agressive, uncaring and greedy.

Then, it's easy to point out all the "marine" behavior on Earth. Look at the destruction of the Amazon. And the degradation of the coral reefs. And the wars.... there's a lot of bad examples of human behavior. And they are very prominent since these stories rule in the news world. It's all we ever see. So naturally, after given this picture of a more perfect race, we can easily get mad at any "marine-type behavior".

That said, there is a lot of unspoken and unsung "Na'vi" behavior. Everyday acts of kindness and small pieces of evidence showing humans yearning to become a more loving and united race - all neglected and shadowed by the bad news.

So not everything is "humans suck". It's just that people tend to focus on those things more. It's a shame too - I think we'd be a lot more effective by focusing on solutions and awarding positive acts than focusing on the faults and condemning problems.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman View Post
First, there are two extremes: The Na'vi and the Marines. [...] The marines are obviously depicted unfavorably. Agressive, uncaring and greedy.
You seem to be conflating "Marines" with "everything bad about the RDA"; I personally find this unfair and offensive.

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Originally Posted by caveman View Post
Then, it's easy to point out all the "marine" behavior on Earth. Look at the destruction of the Amazon. And the degradation of the coral reefs. And the wars.... there's a lot of bad examples of human behavior. And they are very prominent since these stories rule in the news world. It's all we ever see. So naturally, after given this picture of a more perfect race, we can easily get mad at any "marine-type behavior".
Again, why are you applying the label "marine-type behavior" to all of these "bad examples of human behavior?" I think it's grossly unfair to blame soldiers, of all people, for the destruction of the Amazon, the reefs, the wars, etc.

I don't mean to derail the thread, especially since you might not have meant it that way at all. It just sounds as though you are villifying soldiers, and I can't let that slide without comment. Jake himself is a Marine, after all. Trudy is a Marine. The movie communicates that much of what we admire about them is characteristic of them being Marines -- their courage, self-sacrifice, mental toughness, etc.

It's not a soldier's function to be responsible for the "big picture." Their job is to carry out their mission as faithfully and effectively as possible. It's the civilian's job to make sure the soldiers' strength is not being abused, misused, or exploited. When military force is used for unjust ends (like in Avatar) and a soldier dies for a less-than-noble cause, that soldier has been betrayed as profoundly as anybody they themselves may have killed in the process of carrying out their orders.
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You came back
How do you make up after you've done the unforgivable? Jake and Neytiri have a conversation in the wake of Hometree's destruction, during their first real moment alone following his return as Toruk Makto.

The Last Train Home
Fourteen years after the war, a lone spaceship appears in the sky. The former members of the Avatar program watch its approach – expecting the worst, fearing for their adopted home. Then the ship lands. And suddenly, nothing makes sense anymore.

Five seconds too late
This is a different kind of Jake/Neytiri romance, the story that would've unfolded had she been delayed for just five seconds while trying to reach him following the fight with Quaritch.

Last edited by Sothis; 02-01-2011 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:09 AM
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There really isn't. Isn't it natural to want to be something better than what you were?
That's all I want.
The Na'vi ARE perfect, in every way. Physically, they show how ugly and weak humans are. Other than that, they know the right way to live. They see beauty in their world and they adapt to it rather than destroy it. They have a much stronger ability for truly bonding with someone than humans do.
I can't change where I was born, but I can change who I am. That's why I want to.

Sothis, because it IS the marines - not only them, but destroying the environment and killing innocent people are the same thing. They are comparable, and completely unjustifiable. The marines are paid to murder sentient beings. The companies profit from destroying that which does not belong to them. There's no difference. Both are possibly the lowest form of sentient life to exist.
Everything that people say is good about being human, I don't agree. Much of it is pointless and destructive, and that which isn't is not unique to humans.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:29 AM
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I highly doubt the Na'vi are 100% perfect in every way shape or form.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sothis View Post
You seem to be conflating "Marines" with "everything bad about the RDA"; I personally find this unfair and offensive.
I realize how unclear I'm probably being. I tried writing a response to clear it up but I failed. In any case, that ^ is not at all what I was suggesting.

...Let me try putting it this way. In short, we hear a lot of nasty stories - People profiting off of other people's demise; Forests being cut to make money and innocent people being killed. For whatever reason, people focus on these stories a lot more than good stories, so we hear more of them on the news. I think this is a shame because there are a lot of good things happening that get shadowed by the bad.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:30 AM
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Aren't the Na'vi based off of - or at least similar to - various human peoples? (Sorry I can't think of any specific examples. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

I don't think that this should be about Na'vi vs. humans, I think should be about Na'vi vs. certain types of humans.

All humans have the capacity to show the very best Na'vi qualities within themselves IMHO. (Conversely, all humans have the capacity to show the absolute worst characteristics that any race of beings in the universe could display.)

And it might also be worth mentioning that humans are the ones who conceived of the Na'vi and everything that they are.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sothis View Post
It just sounds as though you are villifying soldiers, and I can't let that slide without comment.
Yeah, you really missed the point that I poorly delivered. Miscommunication.

I have nothing against marines. Of course. That's...ridiculous. I'm sorry for being so unclear.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
The marines are paid to murder sentient beings. The companies profit from destroying that which does not belong to them. There's no difference. Both are possibly the lowest form of sentient life to exist.
If I were new to this forum, I would honestly think you were trolling. This is genuinely insulting and hurtful, at a personal level.

As it is, I'm not new... I think everyone knows your stance on humanity as a whole and are not likely to change it, no matter what anyone says. I won't try to change it, in your case.

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Originally Posted by caveman View Post
Yeah, you really missed the point that I poorly delivered. Miscommunication.

I have nothing against marines. Of course. That's...ridiculous. I'm sorry for being so unclear.
No hard feelings. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman View Post
...Let me try putting it this way. In short, we hear a lot of nasty stories - People profiting off of other people's demise; Forests being cut to make money and innocent people being killed. For whatever reason, people focus on these stories a lot more than good stories, so we hear more of them on the news. I think this is a shame because there are a lot of good things happening that get shadowed by the bad.
Makes sense, and I agree.
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Selected writings:

You came back
How do you make up after you've done the unforgivable? Jake and Neytiri have a conversation in the wake of Hometree's destruction, during their first real moment alone following his return as Toruk Makto.

The Last Train Home
Fourteen years after the war, a lone spaceship appears in the sky. The former members of the Avatar program watch its approach – expecting the worst, fearing for their adopted home. Then the ship lands. And suddenly, nothing makes sense anymore.

Five seconds too late
This is a different kind of Jake/Neytiri romance, the story that would've unfolded had she been delayed for just five seconds while trying to reach him following the fight with Quaritch.

Last edited by Sothis; 02-01-2011 at 12:44 AM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty Glass View Post
I don't think that this should be about Na'vi vs. humans, I think should be about Na'vi vs. certain types of humans.

All humans have the capacity to show the very best Na'vi qualities within themselves IMHO. (Conversely, all humans have the capacity to show the absolute worst characteristics that any race of beings in the universe could display.)
This exactly.

I'm going to revise all my last posts in one attempt:

There are two extreme contrasting paradigms depicted in Avatar. Two totally different ways of seeing the same thing.

First, the Na'vi: The Na'vi view the world they live in as a delicate balance of life. They are full of respect for nature and each other. Normally they live in peace and are represented by loving and gentle characters - Jake and Neytiri.

Second is the Marine/RDA/Humans: This faction, under their paradigm, view the world as opportunity for revenue. They destroy beautiful forests and kill innocent Na'vi civilians. They are represented by greedy and agressive characters like Quaritch.

I believe both of these factions are representations of human potential, as Empty Glass stated. Humans, the ones on Earth, can live under either paradigm.

RainbowHawk brought up how he felt some people were disregarding humanity, giving up on humans and such. I said it is simply not so. There's obviously a lot of people, actually, just about everyone, looking for humanity to improve, in whatever vision that may be. It might seem people are giving up on humanity because we hear a lot (especially in the news) about bad human behavior. A lot of things that.. an Avatar fan would label "RDA" because it has the same mentality of "We just want to make profit, even at the expense of others".

In no way was I suggesting real life marines are either bad people or responsible for coral reef destruction (that's ridiculous). I'm suggesting that maybe Avatar fans are angry at the RDA-type actions on Earth, and it may get all the attention even though there is a lot of "Na'vi"-type actions on Earth.

Sorry for killing this. I just don't like confusing people.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:02 AM
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Much better.

Remember, if people give up on humanity, the fascists win. If people are no longer willing to throw themselves onto the gears of the machine, who is going to stop it? Who is going to stop it from destroying what is left of this world? Of another? The RDA s the machine at it's full fruition, and the world is quickly moving in that direction. We need to follow the examples of people like Mario Savio, or Martin Luther King Jr, or Ghandi, before it's too late.

Without hope, there is only death.
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"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

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Old 02-01-2011, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty Glass View Post
I don't think that this should be about Na'vi vs. humans, I think should be about Na'vi vs. certain types of humans.
This, people now tend to view the REAL Human race off of FICTIONAL RDA soldiers....
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:08 AM
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FICTIONAL RDA soldiers....
You've obviously never heard of Xe.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sothis View Post
If I were new to this forum, I would honestly think you were trolling. This is genuinely insulting and hurtful, at a personal level.
So the Na'vi deserve to be killed?
wow, I really never thought someone here would say that...
Sorry, but I see not justification, at all, for harming a sentient species in order to take what is theirs and destroy their home.

Quote:
As it is, I'm not new... I think everyone knows your stance on humanity as a whole and are not likely to change it, no matter what anyone says. I won't try to change it, in your case.
Not everyone understands it. Yes, I see humanity's impact as largely negative, but I do think there is some good in some people. Unfortunately, most of those people are content to just let things happen. On the more general side, then yes, I much prefer the way the Na'vi physically are and that's a goal for me, but that doesn't have any connection to a view on humanity, negative or otherwise.

The marines aren't the ONLY bad thing about humanity on Pandora - after all, it's the people like Selfridge who hire them, who create the need for them. On the other hand, without them, the RDA would find it completely impossible to commit the atrocities it did.

Quote:
Makes sense, and I agree.
A positive and a negative action do not cancel each other out so conveniently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by caveman View Post
RainbowHawk brought up how he felt some people were disregarding humanity, giving up on humans and such. I said it is simply not so. There's obviously a lot of people, actually, just about everyone, looking for humanity to improve, in whatever vision that may be. It might seem people are giving up on humanity because we hear a lot (especially in the news) about bad human behavior. A lot of things that.. an Avatar fan would label "RDA" because it has the same mentality of "We just want to make profit, even at the expense of others".
I think humanity COULD change, maybe is even worth saving (or parts of it anyway), I'm just not convinced so by some misguided sense of blind loyalty.

Quote:
In no way was I suggesting real life marines are either bad people or responsible for coral reef destruction (that's ridiculous). I'm suggesting that maybe Avatar fans are angry at the RDA-type actions on Earth, and it may get all the attention even though there is a lot of "Na'vi"-type actions on Earth.
I think Sothis thought the same thing about me - that was not what I was implying at all - while I really dislike the need for any war, there is a difference between murdering innocent people and killing someone in such a situation. I could comment on how in order to do so you would need to deliberately take a large amount of my post out of context...
You're right about RDA actions on Earth - and governments are really not helping either, look at the Belo Monte am plans, or the government here's attempt to sell off most of the country's forest
Those people are not representative of most of the world, but all the world is still guilty for not doing anything about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Remember, if people give up on humanity, the fascists win. If people are no longer willing to throw themselves onto the gears of the machine, who is going to stop it? Who is going to stop it from destroying what is left of this world? Of another? The RDA s the machine at it's full fruition, and the world is quickly moving in that direction. We need to follow the examples of people like Mario Savio, or Martin Luther King Jr, or Ghandi, before it's too late.
Giving up doesn't mean apathy. I truly couldn't care less about humanity in general, but I will still try to do what I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
You've obviously never heard of Xe.
Exactly. They aren't the only such company either, and historically, national militaries have been similar, with some individual actions which border on war crimes.
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