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Old 02-01-2011, 10:34 PM
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Default What exactly is some people's problem with liking the Na'vi?

I've thought about making this thread a few times. There are a few people here who continually go on about how liking the Na'vi is wrong and people should only care about humans.
This is why I like the Na'vi so much:

The Na'vi have everything humans do not. They do not make the same mistakes that humans made, still make, and have never made any effort to change. They don't have overpopulation, they don't have wars between them, they accept their environment as it is and live WITH it rather than destroy it to suit them. They have the ability to make tsaheylu, which both provides a real sense of understanding which humans do NOT have, and if humans did then they would not go around making everywhere the same and covering everywhere in concrete and destroying everything they can find. The Na'vi can see what there is on Pandora and adapt to it.

Physically, the Na'vi are perfect. Yes, perfect. Humans just don't compare. I respect other people's opinions there but that is mine. I have no loyalty to the way I was born just because of chance.
Why do you think I have my arm showing the Na'vi skin underneath?
It's for MANY reasons. It's for the awareness that I gained, how before Avatar I was much like everyone else, but that person is no longer me and I am glad of that. It's to show the inside on the outside, and it is simply because I much prefer the looks of it to being 100% human. I really don't care what other people want to do, but you have no right to tell me that I should only care about humans - indeed, that is one of the things that really angers me about many people and I perceive them more negatively as a result.

Some people are almost blindly attached to humanity. I think they can not see what people do, and that while not everyone is the same, they do still let things happen.
I've always been interested in transhumanism and Avatar has the perfect themes of it, of how it should be. I really couldn't care less if people wanted to be a certain way because that is their choice. Let me make mine, let me choose my interest, my ideal way of being.

Yes, I do not like the marines in Avatar at all, and I find any comments attempting to justify their actions (yes, some people have made them) as badly considered at lest and hurtful at most. I also get annoyed when someone decides to try and make it personal where no intention to offend anyone exists, in doing so implying that they are all the same. There are people exactly like those marines on Earth, yes, but there are also people who are not. Of course, the only reason those people who are not did not appear in Avatar is because where the marines who did thought 'get paid to kill sentient beings? I like it', they didn't take that job.
The truth is, there ARE some humans who are completely beyond any hope, who do not deserve to live. I have never equated all humans with them, but I have never denied their existence like some people. If you decide that everyone is equal to the lowest common denominator in that all humans are like those ones, then YOU are the one saying that about humans in general. Not me.

Neither do I have any apathy towards humans -I do hope that humanity will not wipe itself out (after all, I'm in this too...), but in order not to do so, it needs to change, and quickly. Do I think it will be able to? Perhaps, perhaps not. Do I think it is WORTH saving? Yes- parts of it, at lest, but in order for it to happen it needs to abandon the perception that it is better than anything else, and it needs to stop fighting among itself.

I realise this is probably a waste of effort and the people who dislike the Na'vi will keep on thinking so, but remember this: I may perceive things differently and have a different goal, but I don't have any problem with you, so why do you with me?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:39 PM
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Why can't people like them both?

You CAN have your cake and eat it too, people.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:42 PM
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You didn't read my post. I don't dislike humans (humans in general, that is, there are certain specific humans I thoroughly hate), and I think that humanity could have hope if it changed.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:58 PM
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Alright I'm going to just give out the warning that I have not had a great day and I'm sorry to any blunt or harsh answers, because really I have been tired with the kind of atmosphere on TOS lately.

Wait who dislike the Na'vi? Maybe I'm blind, but I haven't seen one person post that they hate or dislike the Na'vi.

Who said you should only care about humans?

They Na'vi aren't real, humans are that's why we need to focus on humans. Sure the Na'vi can be a nice inspiration to change, but we still need to focus on US the HUMANS. We will never be Na'vi, the sooner you realize that maybe the sooner you will come to accept how humans are. After acceptance, THATS when we start changing. If you keep this whole attitude of "humans are selfish,greedy, horrible creatures" Then I can guarentee you change will never happen and we will live up to that stupid stereotype that some people seem to have.

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Yes, I do not like the marines in Avatar at all, and I find any comments attempting to justify their actions (yes, some people have made them) as badly considered at lest and hurtful at most.
There's always two sides to each story and theres always some genius behind madness. Not trying to understand both sides is how ignorant people are made.

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The truth is, there ARE some humans who are completely beyond any hope, who do not deserve to live.
Hitler thought the same thing.

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Neither do I have any apathy towards humans -I do hope that humanity will not wipe itself out (after all, I'm in this too...), but in order not to do so, it needs to change, and quickly.
Wait you have no apathy or don't really care about humans, but you hope everyone else can get their **** together just because you were inconvenienced with being born human?Eventually everything will end,that's life. Earth will outlive humans and it will repair itself.

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I realise this is probably a waste of effort and the people who dislike the Na'vi will keep on thinking so, but remember this: I may perceive things differently and have a different goal, but I don't have any problem with you, so why do you with me?
Who dislike the Na'vi again?
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post

The Na'vi have everything humans do not. They do not make the same mistakes that humans made, still make, and have never made any effort to change. They don't have overpopulation, they don't have wars between them, they accept their environment as it is and live WITH it rather than destroy it to suit them. They have the ability to make tsaheylu, which both provides a real sense of understanding which humans do NOT have, and if humans did then they would not go around making everywhere the same and covering everywhere in concrete and destroying everything they can find. The Na'vi can see what there is on Pandora and adapt to it.

They also are fictional. That may be why its so easy for perfection.

Like the Caamasi from Star Wars. Caamasi - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

Demanding that people meet the expectations and levels of fictional characters is simply not fair. That may be the issue here.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:08 PM
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Just letting everyone know that I have read every single word in this topic and I'm choosing to stay out of this.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:09 PM
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Okay. I am ill, and feverish, and running on about my fifth day of being unable to sleep for more than three hours at a time, and this is probably a mistake, buuuuut-

*takes a deep breath*

The Na'vi are fictional.

The RDA is fictional.

Neither side are perfect, and by insisting that the Na'vi are without going 'in my opinion' you are automatically invalidating other people's opinions other than your own. I do not mean to make this person, but this is how you have frequently come across to me.

Your opinion is...an opinion. It is neither correct nor incorrect. I happen to wildly disagree. In MY world-view, by viewing the Na'vi as complicated and as flawed as a sentient species by all rights should be...I am giving them agency. I am giving them the opportunity to be interesting, flawed, compelling people who can be compassionate, selfless, brave, naive, arrogant, xenophobic, violent, big-hearted, spiritual, ambitious, and all of those other wonderful, powerful, INTERESTING contradictions. Purity bores me, and it doesn't exist.

By working out why the RDA and Quaritch and the other Marines acted the way they did, I am putting months and MONTHS of thought into it, so PLEASE do not insult my intelligence or my research skills by saying that it is unconsidered. I have books and books on soldiers, and how they behave, and why people kill and how it affects them. I have another book on how good people can do awful things like the Holocaust, like Rwanda. And, fine, yes, like the fictional school shooting and the fictional destruction of Hometree in the movie. It all makes PERFECT psychological sense. And I say this knowing that they were awful things. But to dismiss the psychology of it, people...well, by dismissing the psychology of it all that happens is that society is going to be open to more bad things happen because it is so much easier to dismiss those who commit crimes like that than it is to admit that that darkness lies in just about all of us. And it's not human, it is merely life. Animals kill each other all the time - including their own species. But to step away from the fiction for a moment, we're the only species that sees things like that as a crime.

In a personal way, I find your style of arguing to be...you don't argue. You don't listen. You state opinion as if they are fact without the honesty of saying 'in my opinion'. And then you turn around and accuse people who are able and willing to have a nuanced view of characters and themes of being unable to listen when all we do is disagree. For my part, I understand your arguments perfectly. I don't agree with them. I have never been one to buy ideas of 'good' and 'evil' and 'pure' and 'perfect'. I'm a humanist, but a cynical one as I am a student of history.

Now, if you have a problem with this, I'm not sure what I can do. I would be dishonest if I were to be otherwise, and I make a habit of trying not to be dishonest.

I'm not saying that you can't like the Na'vi. No one is. Hell, I like them (even if I show my liking by viewing them as complicated and having dark sides to them). But perhaps, we are saying that you could be a little more open-minded. To borrow from the movie, maybe I wish you were able to See into people a little more, be able to See and understand them as opposed to dismissing those who disagree with you.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elyannia View Post
Alright I'm going to just give out the warning that I have not had a great day and I'm sorry to any blunt or harsh answers, because really I have been tired with the kind of atmosphere on TOS lately.

Wait who dislike the Na'vi? Maybe I'm blind, but I haven't seen one person post that they hate or dislike the Na'vi.
Disregarding humanity worries me

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Who said you should only care about humans?
Fair enough if you haven't read the thread I linked above.

Quote:
They Na'vi aren't real, humans are that's why we need to focus on humans. Sure the Na'vi can be a nice inspiration to change, but we still need to focus on US the HUMANS. We will never be Na'vi, the sooner you realize that maybe the sooner you will come to accept how humans are.
Does that make aspiring to something more wrong?
I'd say no.
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After acceptance, THATS when we start changing. If you keep this whole attitude of "humans are selfish,greedy, horrible creatures" Then I can guarentee you change will never happen and we will live up to that stupid stereotype that some people seem to have.
As I said, then I agree people need to be aware of what humanity does. Neither did I say ALL humans are like that, I said that the people who aren't just let the people who are have their way, and that is what needs to change.

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There's always two sides to each story and theres always some genius behind madness. Not trying to understand both sides is how ignorant people are made.
Now this is true, and I did say that I understand the whole 'only humans are good' thing, it's a sense of misguided loyalty.

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Wait you have no apathy or don't really care about humans, but you hope everyone else can get their **** together just because you were inconvenienced with being born human?Eventually everything will end,that's life. Earth will outlive humans and it will repair itself.
I agree - but if humans do change, they can survive. There are many good things that people do, and they are what do give me hope, but for every such action, every person, there is someone who sees nothing but profit and short term gain.

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Who dislike the Na'vi again?
I'm not going to start naming names because I really don't hold things against people that much, but look at the thread I linked, as one example. People there have said that the marines killing Na'vi was justified, that liking the Na'vi while being a human is wrong, and implying that all humans are the same.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:18 PM
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liking the Na'vi is wrong.
HNM...if this was the case none of us would be on ToS I love the Na'vi, I just get sick of people calling the human race trash.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:24 PM
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[QUOTE=Human No More;126650]Disregarding humanity worries me

I have read the thread. My point still stands. I don't just babble like an idiot.

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As I said, then I agree people need to be aware of what humanity does. Neither did I say ALL humans are like that, I said that the people who aren't just let the people who are have their way, and that is what needs to change.
And did I say you thought all humans were that way?


Quote:
I agree - but if humans do change, they can survive. There are many good things that people do, and they are what do give me hope, but for every such action, every person, there is someone who sees nothing but profit and short term gain.
And we're not surviving now? The Na'vi were all about balance. There is no light without darkness. Trust me there is a lot more people doing good then those who "sees nothing but profit and short term gain."

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I'm not going to start naming names because I really don't hold things against people that much,.
You held it against them enough to mention it twice.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Isard View Post
They also are fictional. That may be why its so easy for perfection.

Like the Caamasi from Star Wars. Caamasi - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

Demanding that people meet the expectations and levels of fictional characters is simply not fair. That may be the issue here.
I seriously hope you don't think that doesn't mean we can't learn from them - or even wish to be more like them. Look at your avatar, you have a tron character - do you not find a meaning, themes and a message in Tron like most people here do in Avatar?
There you go. There's your answer.

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Originally Posted by Ashen Key View Post
Your opinion is...an opinion. It is neither correct nor incorrect. I happen to wildly disagree. In MY world-view, by viewing the Na'vi as complicated and as flawed as a sentient species by all rights should be...I am giving them agency. I am giving them the opportunity to be interesting, flawed, compelling people who can be compassionate, selfless, brave, naive, arrogant, xenophobic, violent, big-hearted, spiritual, ambitious, and all of those other wonderful, powerful, INTERESTING contradictions. Purity bores me, and it doesn't exist.
...and you're entitled to it, but to me, I can even see what you mean there, but that does not detract form them at all to me - in the end, it just showed that they are able to think in a way many humans can not - THAT is part of what makes them better.

Quote:
By working out why the RDA and Quaritch and the other Marines acted the way they did, I am putting months and MONTHS of thought into it, so PLEASE do not insult my intelligence or my research skills by saying that it is unconsidered. I have books and books on soldiers, and how they behave, and why people kill and how it affects them. I have another book on how good people can do awful things like the Holocaust, like Rwanda. And, fine, yes, like the fictional school shooting and the fictional destruction of Hometree in the movie. It all makes PERFECT psychological sense. And I say this knowing that they were awful things. But to dismiss the psychology of it, people...well, by dismissing the psychology of it all that happens is that society is going to be open to more bad things happen because it is so much easier to dismiss those who commit crimes like that than it is to admit that that darkness lies in just about all of us. And it's not human, it is merely life. Animals kill each other all the time - including their own species. But to step away from the fiction for a moment, we're the only species that sees things like that as a crime.
All fair enough, but it's a huge leap of logic from there to attempts at justifying it.

Quote:
In a personal way, I find your style of arguing to be...you don't argue. You don't listen. You state opinion as if they are fact without the honesty of saying 'in my opinion'. And then you turn around and accuse people who are able and willing to have a nuanced view of characters and themes of being unable to listen when all we do is disagree. For my part, I understand your arguments perfectly. I don't agree with them. I have never been one to buy ideas of 'good' and 'evil' and 'pure' and 'perfect'. I'm a humanist, but a cynical one as I am a student of history.
YET AGAIN - I do not believe in 'evil', I consider it pure CRAP. This is not the first time someone has accused me of calling someone/something as such (far from it in fact, and almost always the same few people), and I have always corrected them. Surely, if you claim not to either, then you would understand.
Neither do I see what humanism has to do with it.

You're right about what I have said so far in this thread, because this is not an argument, it is a statement - one that I simply can not understand people who dislike the Na'vi out of some sense of blind human loyalty. I didn't create this in the 'debate' section, I created it here because it is relevant, because some people have decided that they have a problem with people liking the Na'vi and not the marines..

Quote:
Now, if you have a problem with this, I'm not sure what I can do. I would be dishonest if I were to be otherwise, and I make a habit of trying not to be dishonest.
I don't.

Quote:
I'm not saying that you can't like the Na'vi. No one is. Hell, I like them (even if I show my liking by viewing them as complicated and having dark sides to them). But perhaps, we are saying that you could be a little more open-minded. To borrow from the movie, maybe I wish you were able to See into people a little more, be able to See and understand them as opposed to dismissing those who disagree with you.
MOST people are fine - the only people I have a problem with are those who refuse to understand that some people do like the Na'vi. They are by no means a majority. Sadly, some people here DO say that people can't or shouldn't like the Na'vi and say that people should like the marines simply because they are human. Did they laugh during Hometree? I don't know, but I know that I owe nobody ANY respect or loyalty simply due to WHO they happened to be.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Elyannia View Post
And did I say you thought all humans were that way?
No, but I think an important part of ANY change is to recognise and accept what is wrong. That can not be done if people convince themselves 'we are perfect and do not need to change anything'.

Quote:
And we're not surviving now? The Na'vi were all about balance. There is no light without darkness. Trust me there is a lot more people doing good then those who "sees nothing but profit and short term gain."
Seven billion people. Resources are running out but there is no effort to replace them with new ways. Biodiversity is lost every day, rainforest is being destroyed. People get killed by others every minute, both in wars (and over what - land? oil again?) and by each other for reasons often no more complicated than greed.
Humans have the ability to wipe out all life on Earth hundreds of times over, just to feel safe. Is that surviving to you? Need I remind you WHAT Earth in Avatar is like? - tens of billions of people, the entire surface of the Earth is covered with cities or destroyed, no biodiversity, wars everywhere.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:36 PM
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Ok ok, I'm still technically "staying out" of the overall discussion, but I thought this tid bit was interesting, so I'll comment. Not respond, just comment.

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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Sadly, some people here DO say that people can't or shouldn't like the Na'vi and say that people should like the marines simply because they are human. Did they laugh during Hometree? I don't know, but I know that I owe nobody ANY respect or loyalty simply due to WHO they happened to be.
Well, my mom hates Avatar, but that didn't stop her emotional response to certain parts of the film. As much as she hated the movie, she did cry during Hometree, and she did let out a bit of a sob during Neytiri's rejection of Jake (with the clan, before Hometree's destruction).

So, that's sort of a little reminder for me that people, as much as they may hate something, stilll universally realize when something's wrong ethically, when the stakes are brought to their most raw point.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:39 PM
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...and you're entitled to it, but to me, I can even see what you mean there, but that does not detract form them at all to me - in the end, it just showed that they are able to thin in a way many humans can not - THAT is part of what makes them better.
That is what makes them better TO YOU. I have no issue in you thinking that they are better (whatever that means given they are a fictional alien species who can literally form part of a group consciousness and we as a species have no way of doing this, and it's...kinda like trying to argue that lions are better than wolves. To me, anyway. Not to mention that they have handed on a plate things that we do not have.). I have issue in you stating that they ARE better, not that you THINK they are better.

If you can't grasp the difference, I'm not sure how else to explain it? But to me, it's a big thing in what gets people's back up.

And explaining something does not justify it. Understanding the motives does not justify it. I do not justify the terrible things that the RDA have done. I merely try and explain them. And I would really like it if you would stop accusing me - and other people - of justifying it. It is starting to get offensive, because I think I would know my own opinions a little better than you.

No offense meant.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:43 PM
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I think that both parties here need to take a moment to chill out, and think about the word "perfect" for a second...

It's, as Mune put it, somewhere, subjective.
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