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  #1  
Old 12-30-2011, 12:19 PM
Ketuwong
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Default Anyone else root for the humans?

So I found myself hoping the humans would win from the first moment to the last. It's clearly not what was intended, however it was impossible for me to sympathize with the Na'Vi. I suppose it was because they weren't human--and I'm an unrepentant human supremacist.

I suppose it's not unusual for me to root for the so-called "bad guys". I loved the Empire in the Star Wars trilogy (the real one--pay no attention to the prequels, I prefer to pretend they didn't exist), and the same seems to hold true in Avatar. The humans were just superior in every way. Their technology was amazing, the characters were more sympathetic, the women were hotter...

The only downside was their atrocious failure to use proper military tactics. I suppose this is a failing that all the allegedly competent bad guys have in movies. Take my earlier example of Star Wars. The Empire, and the Stormtroopers themselves, are built up in early scenes to be these incredibly proficient badass killing machines. The opening scene sees them storming an incredibly tight bottleneck and absolutely slaughtering the defending rabble--er, excuse me, Rebels--with minimal casualties.

Later, however, as the heroes are running amok through the death star, they have similar accuracy to a 15th-century arquebusier.

A similar failing occurred in Avatar. Why in the world would the humans fly their gigantic shuttle so low and leave themselves so vulnerable? It's silly. They could have released the bomb from ten kilometers in the sky. Oh, you say, but their electronics were messed up! And that, my friends, is what old manual bombardier sights would be useful for. Are you telling me that in the vast database the main compound surely has, there's nothing to help them devise a non-electronic bomb sight using the myriad parts they have laying about?

Just fly your gigantic shuttle out of the reach of the Space Pterodactyls and drop the thing on the fancy tree. Boom headshot and the war's over, right? But no. In order to help the Good Guys win, they just have to be utterly retarded about it.

Honestly? I hope the sequel consists of the humans coming back with a solar sail ship loaded down with nuclear warheads, and that they threaten to glass the planet if Na'vi don't stop being uppity little girls--and then follow through when they inevitably resist.
  #2  
Old 12-30-2011, 12:58 PM
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Pwnzerfaust, i respect your opinion, but I don't understand it...how in the world could anyone stand for humans in Avatar (or at least most of them) ?? Maybe my judgment is too partial, maybe I'm too emotional, but i REALLY suffered for the Na'Vi people in the movie...they didn't deserve destruction Again, all opinions are well accepted, but i really don't understant how could anybody take side for humans..if you liked Avatar, sure you know that's not its spirit...
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2011, 01:05 PM
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I don't believe they deserved destruction--nor do I believe the humans did. Earth is an overpopulated world desperately in need of resources. Millions or maybe even billions live and die in abject poverty, struggling to eek out a living atop the polluted soil of our home planet.

Pandora has a number of resources that can help sustain and rejuvenate our struggling world. It is imperative that we obtain and transport those resources back to our own world, to save our own people. And on some level, the Na'vi must know this--we tell them about our world, don't we? We tell them that we need the resources that exist only on their world--and that they aren't even using.

So really, who's the villains here--the people who voyaged between the stars to find some way to save their homes, their families, their species, or those that selfishly deny them the means of that salvation?
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:18 PM
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Since these kind of threads can often turn into flamewars, I would like to remind everyone -

Keep in mind that there's no "right" way to see the movie, the message of the movie, or the events of the movie - it's all a matter of personal interpretation, and we should all respect that.

These kind of discussions can be very constructive and interesting if we listen to each other with respect and understand that we see things differently - it can provide us all with insight into other ways to see and learn from the movie.

Just saying.
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnzerfaust View Post
So really, who's the villains here--the people who voyaged between the stars to find some way to save their homes, their families, their species, or those that selfishly deny them the means of that salvation?
My first thought......



Clearly the second group. Nnnnnooooo pppppeeeaaaaccccceeeeee.
  #6  
Old 12-30-2011, 09:49 PM
Tsamsiyu
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If humanity had the wisdom to use our technology wisely, then we would never end up in such a mess to begin with. Getting all that unobtainium would have just prolonged the inevitable, until another crisis is due because of our collective greed and stupidity. Personally I'm a big technology enthusiast, but I'm still highly pessimistic about our ability to use it wisely, since is a not an inherent flaw in humanity itself, but in the system that we have created for ourselves.

It is sad in a way that we must all suffer for the mistakes of the few, but that's just the way it is.
  #7  
Old 12-31-2011, 12:40 AM
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Earth does not 'need' anything from Pandora. This isn't Spaceballs.
Unobtainium is used in maglev systems and ISVs. Those have nothing to do with Earth's survival. If humans were serious about surviving, they'd get reduce their population by 66% or so, because that's the real problem.

I will be happy to explain this in more nuanced detail for you if you wish, but I suspect that was not your intention.
'Deserving destruction' is a moot point when humans were never facing 'destruction' other than the ever-present potential of internal failure, which is also here RIGHT NOW, TODAY.
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  #8  
Old 12-31-2011, 09:40 AM
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I apologize if i did I respect every opinion, it's interesting to know how other people perceive the movie...I'm just saying: i don't blame humans BECAUSE they're searching for resources, i just blame them for the MEANS they use to reach their purpose. Apart from Grace, Jake, Norm and the scientists, no human tries to talk to the Na'vi people, to explain why they are on Pandora
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Last edited by Fan Lizard; 12-31-2011 at 09:43 AM.
  #9  
Old 12-31-2011, 10:25 AM
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Personally I find it incomprehensible that anybody could want the humans to succeed in their aims in Avatar, or to hope that in the sequel they introduce the Na'vi to genocide simply because they don't have their moon desecrated (I mean seriously, SERIOUSLY!? Nuke Pandora because humans have ruined their own homeworld?). The RDA, and the entire human race (in the film) deserve only the consequences of their crimes towards Earth, whatever they may be.
  #10  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:56 AM
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Yeah, I think this is a rare instance of this not being trolling. If it is, well done Pwnzerfaust; you have elicited a reaction.

That said, I fail to see the logic behind Pwnzerfaust's... unique opinion. There is absolutely no way to justify the RDA's actions on Pandora for two reasons. The earth didn't just magically decide to go to s**t one day; we, humans, killed everything, and the RDA is messing up another planet. Also, we don't have any real need for room-temperature superconductors. They'd just be nice to have.

You don't break into someone else's place, tell them to GTFO, kill them for being understandably irate and not doing so, then blow up their house. It's just wrong.

To summarize:

Last edited by Sight Unseen; 01-01-2012 at 11:59 AM. Reason: ninja'd
  #11  
Old 01-01-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnzerfaust View Post
A similar failing occurred in Avatar. Why in the world would the humans fly their gigantic shuttle so low and leave themselves so vulnerable? It's silly. They could have released the bomb from ten kilometers in the sky. Oh, you say, but their electronics were messed up! And that, my friends, is what old manual bombardier sights would be useful for. Are you telling me that in the vast database the main compound surely has, there's nothing to help them devise a non-electronic bomb sight using the myriad parts they have laying about?
If you assume that unobtanium is a normal superconductor, the math reveals that the result of flying through the mountains is not electronic interference. What precisely that result is depends on how you massage the figures, but in most cases it's far nastier. (On the extreme end, "convert Polyphemus into a magnetar" nasty.)

Quote:
Honestly? I hope the sequel consists of the humans coming back with a solar sail ship loaded down with nuclear warheads, and that they threaten to glass the planet if Na'vi don't stop being uppity little girls--and then follow through when they inevitably resist.
Unfortunately for you and the people who agree with you, this would not sell.

(Note: I'm deliberately missing the point, for comic effect. I know all about the reasons that a "nuke ALL the things" sequel wouldn't happen, both in- and out-universe.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sight Unseen View Post
That said, I fail to see the logic behind Pwnzerfaust's... unique opinion. There is absolutely no way to justify the RDA's actions on Pandora for two reasons.
There's no way to justify the morality of it, I'd agree, but I don't think that's what Pwnzerfaust was complaining about. He's asking about the logic of it, rather than the morality; the RDA want to do a specific thing, i.e. gather unobtanium, and he thinks there's a lack of in-story reasons preventing them from doing that effectively, especially in a sequel. The result - the RDA are ineffective anyway - annoys him because he doesn't think it's justified.

Also, I happen to know that his opinion isn't unique. Some of my friends share it, and have explained it to me. I personally don't agree, but there is a logic behind it, which I could explain if anyone cares.
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  #12  
Old 01-01-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sight Unseen View Post
Yeah, I think this is a rare instance of this not being trolling. If it is, well done Pwnzerfaust; you have elicited a reaction.
He joined this forum, has 2 posts, both of them being in this thread, never actually said or indicated that he is an Avatar fan and was (for the moment) never seen again.


  #13  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnzerfaust View Post
So I found myself hoping the humans would win from the first moment to the last. It's clearly not what was intended, however it was impossible for me to sympathize with the Na'Vi. I suppose it was because they weren't human--and I'm an unrepentant human supremacist.

I suppose it's not unusual for me to root for the so-called "bad guys". I loved the Empire in the Star Wars trilogy (the real one--pay no attention to the prequels, I prefer to pretend they didn't exist), and the same seems to hold true in Avatar. The humans were just superior in every way. Their technology was amazing, the characters were more sympathetic, the women were hotter...

The only downside was their atrocious failure to use proper military tactics. I suppose this is a failing that all the allegedly competent bad guys have in movies. Take my earlier example of Star Wars. The Empire, and the Stormtroopers themselves, are built up in early scenes to be these incredibly proficient badass killing machines. The opening scene sees them storming an incredibly tight bottleneck and absolutely slaughtering the defending rabble--er, excuse me, Rebels--with minimal casualties.

Later, however, as the heroes are running amok through the death star, they have similar accuracy to a 15th-century arquebusier.

A similar failing occurred in Avatar. Why in the world would the humans fly their gigantic shuttle so low and leave themselves so vulnerable? It's silly. They could have released the bomb from ten kilometers in the sky. Oh, you say, but their electronics were messed up! And that, my friends, is what old manual bombardier sights would be useful for. Are you telling me that in the vast database the main compound surely has, there's nothing to help them devise a non-electronic bomb sight using the myriad parts they have laying about?

Just fly your gigantic shuttle out of the reach of the Space Pterodactyls and drop the thing on the fancy tree. Boom headshot and the war's over, right? But no. In order to help the Good Guys win, they just have to be utterly retarded about it.

Honestly? I hope the sequel consists of the humans coming back with a solar sail ship loaded down with nuclear warheads, and that they threaten to glass the planet if Na'vi don't stop being uppity little girls--and then follow through when they inevitably resist.
Change your tune, little canary, or you might die.

Is that discreet enough?
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  #14  
Old 01-02-2012, 02:15 AM
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Well, to each their own opinion definitely applies here, I guess. You can't blame someone for siding with the RDA, just as you can't blame someone for being a misanthrope. It's just the way things are, and the way people are.

I have my doubts against the RDA (very strong doubts, in quite a few ways) and I was leaning towards the Na'vi, but it is true that some of the RDA's actions in the movie were quite idiotic. Pwnzerfaust did make a good point. Cameron could've handled that better, and maybe he might, in the sequels. Not necessarily with the RDA, but any antagonists.

Of course, I'd feel better if I knew for certain this wasn't trolling, but...
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  #15  
Old 01-02-2012, 03:03 AM
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I've pointed out the failures of every single last one of your arguments before. In case you didn't notice, flying low is because not only are there mountains in the way, but their weapon consists of an idiot pushing a crate down a ramp - not very accurate. Shuttles aren't fitted with bomb sights, that's just idiocy (and ten miles is higher than just about any aircraft ever, to the point that wind would move the crate a HUGE distance). The higher the shuttle goes, the less lift it generates, and is designed for ballistic flight, not hovering - its hover mode is only for low altitude - the higher it goes, the less power its engines develop, while its wings become worse than useless - lift only works at speed, the reason aircraft have a stall speed, where below it, they are dead weight.

Try harder, troll. I've defeated far more eloquent and informed ones than you with very little effort. I should probably put this thread out of its misery, but I'm not going to for now.
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