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  #16  
Old 05-14-2010, 11:09 AM
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I would like to quote a scene from a certain movie that came to mind:





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  #17  
Old 05-14-2010, 11:31 AM
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Ahh yes, this scene sticks in my mind too. It further raises a lot of questions.

The way we act and the traits we show does indeed suggest so, at least, the modern world does. When we began and indeed in some places still, we had a close connection with nature. We took what we needed and only that. Enough to maintain the balance. But somewhere along that path, we lost the way and began taking from the Earth things that we did not really need. I do see that what this has turned us into, as always, can be also seen as a good thing, we share cultures, languages and poits of view far more easily which leads to a wider knowledge and a better understanding, but one has to ask...

At what cost?
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:39 AM
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Does scientific knowledge bring happiness? No.

Just compare modern society with, say, any nature tribes today, the native americans, or even the Na'vi - who have larger scientific knowledge? Who would you rather live with?

I do not think that we have "wider knowledge and a better understanding" than say, any nature tribe that still exist on Earth. Let me give an example:
Today there are people who had lived in a nature tribe almost all their lives, who then went out of the tribe, adapted our culture, and now understands our knowledge perfectly. They have very easy to learn what we know.

If WE were to see what THEY know, if would be much, much harder - they have knowledges that reaches beyond our way of thinking.

I think that they understand nature and life FAR better than we do.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:48 AM
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I agree completely.

They are two different types of knowledge. The knowledge we have seems to be engineered to help us fit into our modernised system rather than preparing us for actual 'life' and giving us experience as such.

But I do have to question are they really, truly happy?
If I were born into a tribe and never had experience of the outer world, living just as they do, would I be as happy as I am now? I may be even happier, but perhaps they take what they have for granted slightly too. I doubt it very much, but it is a question that still crosses my mind often.
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  #20  
Old 05-14-2010, 02:27 PM
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I have noticed one thing:

The more time I spend inside four walls, looking at this monitor, the more bored I become. Every time I take my dog out, or just take a walk around in the forest, I become happy.

I could imagine those people who live in tribes in the middle of nowhere being much happier than me most of the time.
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  #21  
Old 05-14-2010, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosus View Post
I have noticed one thing:

The more time I spend inside four walls, looking at this monitor, the more bored I become. Every time I take my dog out, or just take a walk around in the forest, I become happy.

I could imagine those people who live in tribes in the middle of nowhere being much happier than me most of the time.
For me it makes no difference if I stay indoors or go outside, both have their merits, and none is really any better than the other. Infact I think I'd be more miserable living in nature than indoors, because outdoor life is too demanding.
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  #22  
Old 05-14-2010, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eltu View Post
Does scientific knowledge bring happiness? No.

Just compare modern society with, say, any nature tribes today, the native americans, or even the Na'vi - who have larger scientific knowledge? Who would you rather live with?

I do not think that we have "wider knowledge and a better understanding" than say, any nature tribe that still exist on Earth. Let me give an example:
Today there are people who had lived in a nature tribe almost all their lives, who then went out of the tribe, adapted our culture, and now understands our knowledge perfectly. They have very easy to learn what we know.

If WE were to see what THEY know, if would be much, much harder - they have knowledges that reaches beyond our way of thinking.

I think that they understand nature and life FAR better than we do.
Knowledge itself doesn't inherently, but how it is used can.
If we were alone in the universe, I would have probably killed myself out of depression years ago. Knowing things can certainly make things a lot easier, more happy.

I can look at a sunset, at trees, at any of the beauty the world still holds, and just because I understand it's nature doesn't mean I can't appreciate it, can't be happy.
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  #23  
Old 05-14-2010, 05:36 PM
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One can understand nature by other means than scientific knowledge.
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  #24  
Old 05-14-2010, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eltu View Post
So what makes us think this way, give us these feelings?
We're so smart that we can have complex feelings most non-humans don't possess. Insects and amoeba's don't feel remorse or pity or sadness or even fear, they just rely upon their self-preservation instincts, as they don't have complex thought processes. Animals with much more complex brains, such as cats, dolphins, and us humans are saddened when bad and happy when good things happen. To a spider, if it's eggsack is destroyed, it's brain just moves on to the next priority over protecting its young. If a human or one of the other intelligent animals I mentioned loses young, they can enter serious states of depression. Dolphins have actually been observed to commit suicide over the loss of young*.

We have these feelings because we've developed to the point where we think past our basic instincts and grow attached to things and have dreams beyond eating and reproducing.

*Dolphins have to manually breathe, they don't just do it subconsciously like how we do, so they just stop breathing, pass out, and drown. This has been observed in dolphins caught in the wild and forced into captivity, as well as in the wild when a baby dies.
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  #25  
Old 05-14-2010, 08:45 PM
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Amazing animation... those walking proteins amazed me. The damn thing walks! And it's all true!
As I said, I just wish I was micro-sized with my own consciousness... I wish I could observe the whole thing closely, understand it... maybe make my own models of living organisms?

The topic is vast - what is our purpose? It's a debate subject, and there will be many answers from each person.
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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2010, 10:13 PM
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Wow, that original post... It is... Beyond words...
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  #27  
Old 05-14-2010, 11:35 PM
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Eltu your post really makes me think… a lot. The billions of cells inside us do their specific task 24/7 and don't "think" about what they are doing. They unconsciously carry out millions of actions including synthesizing proteins, creating new enzymes, endlessly replicating DNA, ect. So what makes us different as a whole? If you go beyond the cells and into their atoms, the electrons orbit the nucleus in their respective shells. What does this resemble? It resembles our solar system. With numerous planets orbiting the sun, just as electrons orbit the nucleus of an atom. In essence, this can be used to describe the Milky Way Galaxy as a cell, with billions of stars and solar systems with orbiting planets acting as atoms. After that, the billions and billions of galaxies together in our universe could be extremely similar to us but just on an infinitely larger scale. In terms of our universe, the Earth is like an electron.

But coming back down to Earth, the cells that make up are body are the unsung heroes of life. After watching your video, it really makes me wonder, why are they doing all of that? All their hard work makes me feel that I have a profound purpose in life. I feel that that purpose is protecting our planet as best I can, and trying to help other people learn to appreciate the majesty and divinity of life.
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  #28  
Old 05-15-2010, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan View Post
I do see that what this has turned us into, as always, can be also seen as a good thing, we share cultures, languages and points of view far more easily which leads to a wider knowledge and a better understanding, but one has to ask...

At what cost?
the loss of each individual culture and language, and their beliefs and customs, to the conglomerate.
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  #29  
Old 05-16-2010, 11:11 AM
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And that is very, very sad, really.
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  #30  
Old 05-16-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eltu View Post
[I][SIZE="1"]Our bodies are made up of billions of cells... each cell, a living organism in itself. Together they form a larger consciousness, a human being. We, in turn, are also living organisms - and like the cells... together, are we all a part of another, larger consciousness?

The cells of our body lack the physical senses to understand that they are a part of something larger. Are we the same? Do our physical senses prevent us from understanding the real state of the world, of our universe – because we are blinded by thinking that they are all we have?
Interesting. I have always looked at our existence in the way you describe above. If I hit my own arm, I will effectivley cause a disaster that will kill countless cells. Although I feel a little pain, that incident does not bother me. But it does make me consider the nature of God. I can affect the health of the individual cells by the way I live. To each individual cell in my body, I am an immortal God. But even as the living God of my own body, I am also ultimately mortal and ruled by the laws of nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devourment View Post
In short, we're highly intelligent mammals who like to think we have purpose other than reproduction.
Yes, agreed. This is effectively what we are. This is what we will always be.

But I also like to believe that we effectively part of the Universe's self-conciousness. By having consciounsess ourselves we naturally try to understand the Universe in which we live. That does not mean we are chosen or unique, we just are. So in a sense, I do not believe that the eyes of God are looking at us, but that in fact in some way we are the eyes of God, or more acurately, one of the many eyes of God.

The problem for humanity in understanding the Universe is that we are extremely inward-looking (an Avatar is equally an inward looking movie). We always judge and assess the Universe in human terms. This is ultimately true with religion which is human-centric. But science is not much better as everything we do or study relates to ourselves in some way or form. Just about every scientific asks the same question (although these questions branch out into more complexity): "Where do we come from? Who are we? How are we like other animals? Where are we going?

This means that we may be missing very important or useful information because we do not have the perception to see things beyond our own existence. Unfortuntaly, we will never proceed if we can look at the Unverse more ojectively. And we are not at that stage yet.

Last edited by neytirifanboy; 05-16-2010 at 12:01 PM.
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