The Image of Reality - Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum
Go Back   Tree of Souls - An Avatar Community Forum » General Forums » General Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-20-2010, 05:10 PM
ZenitYerkes's Avatar
Karyu
ZenitYerkes - Progress means expanding everyone's freedom
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,329
Default The Image of Reality

I thought this was worth sharing. Excerpt of the book "Days of war, Nights of love", actually an essay from NietszChe Guevara.

---

Seduced by the Image of Reality

When I would look through magazines as a small child, I used to think that there must be a magical world somewhere where everything looked—and was—perfect. I could see pictures from it in those pages, the smoky air of dimly-lit rooms heavy with drama as the young models lounged in designer fashions. That is where excitement and adventure is to be found, I thought, in the world where every room is flawlessly decorated and every woman's wardrobe is picked and matched with daring and finesse. I resolved to have an adventurous life of my own, and began looking for those rooms and women right away. And though I've discovered since then that romance and excitement rarely come hand in hand with the images of them that are presented to us—usually the opposite is true, that adventure is to be found precisely where there is no time or energy for keeping up appearances—I still catch myself sometimes thinking that everything would be perfect if only I lived in that picturesque log cabin with matching rugs.

Whatever each us may be looking for, we all tend to pursue our desires by pursuing images: symbols of the things we desire. We buy leather jackets when we want rebellion and danger. We purchase fast cars not for the sake of driving fast, but to recapture our lost youth. When we want world revolution, we buy political pamphlets and bumper stickers. Somehow we assume that having all the right accessories will get us the perfect lives. And when we construct our lives, we often do it according to an image, a pattern that has been laid out for us: hippie, businessman, housewife, punk.

Why do we think so much about images today, rather than concentrating on reality, on our lives and emotions themselves? One of the reasons images have attained so much significance in this society is that, unlike activities, images are easy to sell. Advertising and marketing, which are designed to invest products with a symbolic value that will attract consumers, have transformed our culture. Corporations have been spreading propaganda designed to make us believe in the magic powers of their commodities for generations now: deodorant offers popularity, soda offers youth and energy, jeans offer sex appeal. At our jobs, we exchange our time, energy, and creativity for the ability to buy these symbols—and we keep buying them, for of course no quantity of cigarettes can really give anyone sophistication. Rather than satisfying our needs, these products multiply them: for in order to get them, we end up selling parts of our lives away. We keep going back, not knowing any other way, hoping that the new product (self-help books, punk rock records, that vacation cabin with matching rugs) will be the one that will fix everything.

We are easily persuaded to chase these images because it is simply easier to change the scenery around you than it is to change your own life. How much less trouble, how much less risky it would be if you could make your life perfect just by collecting all the right accessories! No participation necessary. The image comes to embody all the things you desire, and you spend all your time and energy trying to get the details right (the bohemian tries to find the perfect black beret and the right poetry readings to attend—the frat boy has to be seen with the right friends, at the right parties, drinking the right beers and wearing the right informal dress shirts) rather than pursuing the desires themselves—for of course it's easier to identify yourself with a prefabricated image than to identify exactly what you want in life. But if you really want adventure, an Australian hunting jacket won't suffice, and if you want real romance, dinner and a movie with the most popular girl at your school might not be enough.

Fascinated as we are by images, our values have come to revolve around a world we can never actually experience. There's no way into the pages of the magazine, there's no way to be the archetypal punk or the perfect executive. We're "trapped" out here in the real world, forever. And yet we keep looking for life in pictures, in fashions, in spectacles of all kinds, anything that we can collect or watch—instead of doing.

WE LOOK FOR LIFE IN THE IMAGE OF LIFE.


Watching from the Sidelines

The curious thing about a spectacle is how it immobilizes the spectators: just like the image, it centers their attention, their values, and ultimately their lives around something outside of themselves. It keeps them occupied without making them active, it keeps them feeling involved without giving them control. You can probably think of a thousand different examples of this: television programs, action movies, magazines that give updates on the lives of celebrities and superstars, spectator sports, representative "democracy," the Catholic church.

A spectacle also isolates the people whose attention it commands. Many of us know more about the fictitious characters of popular sitcoms than we know about the lives and loves of our neighbors—for even when we talk to them, it is about television shows, the news, and the weather; thus the very experiences and information that we share in common as spectators of the mass-media serve to separate us from one another. It is the same at a big football game: everybody watching from the bleachers is a nobody, regardless of who they are. They may be sitting next to each other, but all eyes are focused on the field. If they speak to each other, it is almost never about each other, but about the game that is being played before them. And although football fans cannot participate in the events of the game they are watching, or exert any real influence over them, they attach the utmost importance to these events and associate their own needs and desires with their outcome in a most unusual way. Rather than concentrating their attention on things that have a real bearing on their desires, they reconstruct their desires to revolve around the things they pay attention to. Their language even conflates the achievements of the team they identify themselves with with their own actions: "we scored a goal!" "we won!" shout the fans from their seats and sofas.

This stands in stark contrast to the way people speak about the things that go on in our own cities and communities. "They're building a new highway," we say about the new changes in our neighborhood. "What will they think of next?" we say about the latest advances in scientific technology. Our language reveals that we think of ourselves as spectators in our own societies. But it's not "They," the mysterious Other People, who have made the world the way it is—it is we, humanity ourselves. No small team of scientists, city planners, and rich bureaucrats could have done all the working and inventing and organizing that it has taken for us to transform this planet; it has taken and still takes all of us, working together, to do this. We are the ones doing it, every day. And yet most of us seem to feel that we can have more control over football games than we can over our cities, our jobs, even our own lives.

We might have more success in our pursuit of happiness if we start trying to really participate. Rather than trying to fit images, we can seek exciting and rewarding experiences; for happiness does not come from what you have or how your appear, but from what you do and how you feel. And instead of accepting the role of passive spectator to sports, society, and life, it is up to each of us to figure out how to play an active and significant part in creating the worlds around us and within us. Perhaps one day we can build a new society in which we can all be involved together in the decisions that affect the lives we lead; then we will be able to truly choose our own destinies, instead of feeling helpless and left out.

What's the point of doing anything
if nobody's watching?

We all want to be famous, to be seen, frozen, preserved in the media, because we've come to trust what is seen more than what is actually lived. Somehow we've gotten everything backwards and images seem more real to us than experiences. To know that we really exist, that we really matter, we have to see ghosts of ourselves preserved in photographs, on television shows and videotapes, in the public eye.

And when you go on vacation, what do you see? Scores of tourists with video cameras screwed to their faces, as if they're trying to suck all of the real world into the two-dimensional world of images, spending their "time off" seeing the world through a tiny glass lens. Sure, turning everything that you could experience with all five senses into recorded information that you can only observe from a distance, detached, offers us the illusion of having control over our lives: we can rewind and replay them, over and over, until everything looks ridiculous. But what kind of life is that?

"What's the point of watching anything
if nobody's doing?"
__________________
I love Plato, but I love Truth more - Aristotle
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-20-2010, 06:52 PM
ZenitYerkes's Avatar
Karyu
ZenitYerkes - Progress means expanding everyone's freedom
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,329
Default

Bump.

This post deserves it. Perhaps.
__________________
I love Plato, but I love Truth more - Aristotle
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-20-2010, 10:11 PM
Empty Glass's Avatar
Karyu
Empty Glass has no status.
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,432
Default

I think it's a good essay, and it lays out a lot of things that many people are probably unaware of. I really like this part:

Quote:
We buy leather jackets when we want rebellion and danger. We purchase fast cars not for the sake of driving fast, but to recapture our lost youth. When we want world revolution, we buy political pamphlets and bumper stickers. Somehow we assume that having all the right accessories will get us the perfect lives. And when we construct our lives, we often do it according to an image, a pattern that has been laid out for us: hippie, businessman, housewife, punk.
I have been guilty of this before and once sought out clothes and products that would give off the impression of me belonging to something out of the norm and/or from a different time and place. But eventually it just seemed kind of futile to me, and I realized that you really don't get much out of, say, wearing a leather jacket if you're just doing the same old life routine as before. (Not to mention, being a slave of fashion can get expensive, and there are better things to spend your money on!) I have friends who are somewhat rebellious and with whom I have had the fortune of sharing adventure - the clothes/image that they wear are not what their lives revolve around, it's what they actually do while wearing them, and they don't worry about what sort of pre-established image they give off! One of them has shown me (a)political pamphlets with philosophies like the one in this essay; I am certain he did not buy them, and he actually tries to live the life described within them! Anyway...pardon my being sidetracked, but I find such traits admirable. At the end of your life, are you going be happier about having looked like the life you wanted, are about having actually lived that life?

Thanks for posting, ZY.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-21-2010, 12:37 AM
Woodsprite's Avatar
Olo'eyktan
Woodsprite is very busy.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 3,168
Default

Hmm...

Well, I've never really imagined a world like that in my mind. I simply thought of the world as a tool. One big conglomerate tool that could be used for bad or good, and I was the one who would decide, ultimately for my own life, what to use it for. Succeeding or not, the world remains a place where images can be put into people's minds as the "ideal utopia", like the one you described. And you could say people do/buy things based mostly on emotion and living in the moment.

...But no one I know is like that. No one I know (and I've known quite a few people) has ever based their decisions on what they read in magazines or watched in movies or television. Ironically, to me, it seems like your whole essay is based on a view of what the world thinks... according to some movie or T.V. show. Because I've never known anyone to base their lives on what they see in movies or read in magazines.

I've seen articles like yours; trust me. And whenever I read them I think, "Does this person have any grasp on what real people are like? Has this person had any kind of social activity going on at any point in his/her life?" Maybe it's just where I live. Maybe it's just the particular kinds of people I've met. I don't know what it is, but I know that reality isn't the way you describe; at least, not where I live, or concerning who I've met.

Now here's where my faith comes in to preach. You ask, "What's the point of doing anything if nobody's watching?" Well, God's watching. My life's motto is, "On a gravestone there's a dash between the dates of a person's birth and death. Use that dash for God." What are others doing with their dash? All you get is that little dash and then your life is over. I don't care how long you've been alive; you're going to be dead longer. George Washington died in 1799, and he's still dead.

So, God is always watching everything. I figure, I better be doing something useful with my life, and not just working on the fly with what I've got. I don't go by the popular, "Shoot for the moon because there isn't anyone there; life isn't fair so you do what you like; say, 'What the hell?' You only go 'round once, you know." That's absolute nonsense to me, because it implies a life filled with nothing but pleasure without substance. Sure, you can "change humanity", but what does it matter if mankind is going down the drain anyway? That's where, I think, the line is drawn between those who believe they have a purpose (which includes most of those in history who have indeed changed the world), and those who think it's all random. Nothing's for real.

So Zenit, I'm going to have to completely disagree with your analysis on what man naturally thinks and why he does what he does, essentially saying they're all like-minded commertial zombies who can't think for themselves, but rather go by "the tube" (as you've indicated before, but not specifically saying so in this particular article). From personal experience with people and their initiatives, reality just doesn't match with your analysis.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:26 AM
Tsyal Makto's Avatar
Tsulfätu
Tsyal Makto glad to be home!
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Body - Chicago, Spirit - Pandora
Posts: 1,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Hmm...
Well, I've never really imagined a world like that in my mind. I simply thought of the world as a tool. One big conglomerate tool that could be used for bad or good, and I was the one who would decide, ultimately for my own life, what to use it for. Succeeding or not, the world remains a place where images can be put into people's minds as the "ideal utopia", like the one you described. And you could say people do/buy things based mostly on emotion and living in the moment.
...But no one I know is like that. No one I know (and I've known quite a few people) has ever based their decisions on what they read in magazines or watched in movies or television. Ironically, to me, it seems like your whole essay is based on a view of what the world thinks... according to some movie or T.V. show. Because I've never known anyone to base their lives on what they see in movies or read in magazines.
Let me use the example of the latest sensation that is sweeping the nation (US), the political TEA party. I'd say a good portion of the TEA Party is just running off the fodder they glean from the right-wing-based media in our country. I remember I heard a sound-byte once from one of their rallies, and one guy was screaming the old "Obama's a fascist" spiel, and when a reporter asked him why he made that statement, his response was "because he is." Then, when she pressured him further to back-up his statement, he got defensive and started accusing the reporter of being a liberal. (If he were smarter he'd realize that liberal fascism is impossible, but I digress ).

Doesn't sound much like a free thinker to me. Now, hopefully drones like these constitute a small faction of that party (though I have my doubts, based on other examples of similar behavior) and much less (god willing) the American people. Whatever, disregarding politics, that doesn't change the fact that when I see Nike advertised, I see Nike on the street. When I saw advertisements for those little rubber animal armbands, I saw people hoarding the things. And fad after fad after fad. I can't help but wonder if all these fads really are signs of pop culture and consumerism controling people's lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
I've seen articles like yours; trust me. And whenever I read them I think, "Does this person have any grasp on what real people are like? Has this person had any kind of social activity going on at any point in his/her life?" Maybe it's just where I live. Maybe it's just the particular kinds of people I've met. I don't know what it is, but I know that reality isn't the way you describe; at least, not where I live, or concerning who I've met.
Relativity is more than a scientific theory. But it's not a liberal-conspiracy to reduce Bible reading, according to Conservapedia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Now here's where my faith comes in to preach. You ask, "What's the point of doing anything if nobody's watching?" Well, God's watching. My life's motto is, "On a gravestone there's a dash between the dates of a person's birth and death. Use that dash for God." What are others doing with their dash? All you get is that little dash and then your life is over. I don't care how long you've been alive; you're going to be dead longer. George Washington died in 1799, and he's still dead.
So, God is always watching everything. I figure, I better be doing something useful with my life, and not just working on the fly with what I've got. I don't go by the popular, "Shoot for the moon because there isn't anyone there; life isn't fair so you do what you like; say, 'What the hell?' You only go 'round once, you know." That's absolute nonsense to me, because it implies a life filled with nothing but pleasure without substance. Sure, you can "change humanity", but what does it matter if mankind is going down the drain anyway? That's where, I think, the line is drawn between those who believe they have a purpose (which includes most of those in history who have indeed changed the world), and those who think it's all random. Nothing's for real.
Well then, that means you have found your purpose in life, to look good for the man upstairs. But that doesn't mean that that is everyone else's purpose in life, though (regardless of what your religion teaches). Everyone's got something that they want to do in life - they'll be here for a while, why not do something to pass the time? Whether that is done because it is believed to be purpose, or it is something someone simply finds interesting out of the random chaotic matrix that is reality, whatever, it doesn't matter what the means are as long as they reach the ends, fulfillment.

What's wrong with shooting for the moon because no one is there? (TBH I can't tell if that's an existential statement or if you're knocking misanthropy )? Or doing whatever you want because you think life isn't fair? Or doing something because you live only once? As long as people are following their dreams and are living fulfilled, I could care less what their motives are, or if they felt it was purpose or not. It doesn't matter if someone lives for God or lives for the world; or lives for power or lives for knowledge; or lives for the wilderness or lives for civilization. All that matters is that when the grim reaper finally comes a'knockin', that they can die knowing they've done their damndest to fill that little hyphen.

Who cares whether god or society is watching or not? The thing that should matter the most is that you're watching!



Hope this post is pretty coherent. Wrote it under a sleeping pill (insomnia's a bitch. ).
__________________


The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 09-21-2010 at 06:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-21-2010, 02:59 PM
ZenitYerkes's Avatar
Karyu
ZenitYerkes - Progress means expanding everyone's freedom
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,329
Default

Woodsprite:

First, the article is not mine.

Second, I don't know where you live -but I honestly want to live there. It seems capitalism and representative democracy bring the best and fairest society ever -while what I have around me seems completely different.

You say your acquaintances have no interest in images and rather go for the true thing -but where I live people talk about what the TV shown last night, people want what the ads show just because it's better than what they've got, and their own ideas, values and lives -the true thing- are put in a second place. I've seen it, I've heard it in the subway, in the place I study, in the streets and even in my family; I'd like to see that people leaving the symbols apart and go for the real experiences those fail to describe.

This world you seem to not have experienced (yet) is the place where I -and all the people I've had the luck to meet here and out of here, live and complain about.

And third, you didn't get at all what the essay tries to explain. Hence why you explained your posture towards "What's the point of doing anything if nobody's watching?" instead of understanding why the sentence is placed in the essay.

But I can't blame you, I guess.
__________________
I love Plato, but I love Truth more - Aristotle
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-23-2010, 02:34 AM
Woodsprite's Avatar
Olo'eyktan
Woodsprite is very busy.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 3,168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
First, the article is not mine.
Ah. I didn't see that. Sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
Second, I don't know where you live -but I honestly want to live there. It seems capitalism and representative democracy bring the best and fairest society ever -while what I have around me seems completely different.
It's just a small city in Texas (just big enough to be called a "city"; if it were any smaller it'd be called a town). I know you didn't say this, but I get the sense you're saying what I in is a wonderful place where capitalism is perfect and what not. But honestly, it's just like any other small city or town in the U.S. If I lived in a much larger city like Dallas or Houston, my feelings about society (probably in general) would be a lot more different. But still, it's not like living where I live is a utopia or anything; it's just comfy.

You say your acquaintances have no interest in images and rather go for the true thing -but where I live people talk about what the TV shown last night, people want what the ads show just because it's better than what they've got, and their own ideas, values and lives -the true thing- are put in a second place. I've seen it, I've heard it in the subway, in the place I study, in the streets and even in my family; I'd like to see that people leaving the symbols apart and go for the real experiences those fail to describe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
This world you seem to not have experienced (yet) is the place where I -and all the people I've had the luck to meet here and out of here, live and complain about.
Oh trust me, I'm counting on meeting a lot of people like this in Los Angeles. I'm guessing I don't complain as much because I'm not so affected by any one system that I can take the time to analyze each theory with a more open demeanor, while still keeping to the knowledge of what brought me where I am today (capitalism and democracy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenitYerkes View Post
And third, you didn't get at all what the essay tries to explain. Hence why you explained your posture towards "What's the point of doing anything if nobody's watching?" instead of understanding why the sentence is placed in the essay.
No, I do understand the point of the quotation; I just wanted to state my own meaning to what I thought of it. I understand it just describes... basically what the rest of the article was saying: that people try to put up appearances that have no meaning accept to appease themselves as well as the rest of "society", and that most are lazy bums who have no motivation to make a difference except for their own lives. And that even then, many still don't make any attempt to make a difference there either because they're hopelessly bamboozled by what images are thrown at them as "representations of 'the real'".

But as far as I've gone in life, no one I've ever met has tried to "appease" anyone with meaningless appearances that copy pop culture. I went off on my own response to "What's the point of doing anything if nobody's watching?" as if it wasn't referring to what it did, because I had already given my answer before. And my answer is still: as much as I've been around, I've never met anyone IRL that has had this... thing wrong with them. Thus, I must disagree.




Tsyal Makto: I would absolutely love to have a verbal conversation with you about the Tea Party movement, to see exactly what knowledge you truly possess on the subject. The one thing I won't tolerate here is anti-Christian hate speech, which is why I usually speak out in those cases. Everything else, I try incredibly hard to keep to myself. One of these is your immense ignorance on what the Tea Party movement is, and who is a part of it. Anything political is also mostly something I keep to myself. Which is why I've never spoken up to your hate rants against Beck, Fox News, the Tea Partiers, and anything else "conservative".

But seriously, if there's ever a time on Skype, or a time arises anywhere where I can talk to you voice-to-voice, I will personally explain to you how utterly wrong and misinformed you are about this issue, as well as how ignorant of the facts you are.

As for relativity being "more than a scientific theory", please explain this quote to me:

Quote:
"Relativity applies to physics, not ethics."

--Albert Einstein
Please also explain this quote:

Quote:
"The meaning of relativity has been widely misunderstood. Philosophers play with the word, like a child with a doll. Relativity, as I see it, merely denotes that certain physical and mechanical facts, which have been regarded as positive and permanent, are relative with regard to certain other facts in the sphere of physics and mechanics. It does not mean that everything in life is relative and that we have the right to turn the whole world mischievously topsy-turvy."

--Albert Einstein

Last edited by Woodsprite; 09-23-2010 at 02:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-23-2010, 03:12 AM
Banefull's Avatar
Ikran Makto
Banefull has a status.
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 814
Send a message via Skype™ to Banefull
Default

A good essay. This would make a good segment in the purpose and meaning debate thread. The one thing though is that this is not descriptive of every person. Everyone comes to believe in different purposes for their existence. This only describes those who feel that one of their purposes in life is to accumulate wealth, power, or prestige. Once you break free of that, then you do not feel a need to chase after these things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
You ask, "What's the point of doing anything if nobody's watching?" Well, God's watching.
Very well said.




I wish I had time to say more but time constraints prevent me.

Last edited by Banefull; 09-23-2010 at 03:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-23-2010, 03:15 AM
Tsyal Makto's Avatar
Tsulfätu
Tsyal Makto glad to be home!
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Body - Chicago, Spirit - Pandora
Posts: 1,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Tsyal Makto: I would absolutely love to have a verbal conversation with you about the Tea Party movement, to see exactly what knowledge you truly possess on the subject. The one thing I won't tolerate here is anti-Christian hate speech, which is why I usually speak out in those cases. Everything else, I try incredibly hard to keep to myself. One of these is your immense ignorance on what the Tea Party movement is, and who is a part of it. Anything political is also mostly something I keep to myself. Which is why I've never spoken up to your hate rants against Beck, Fox News, the Tea Partiers, and anything else "conservative".

But seriously, if there's ever a time on Skype, or a time arises anywhere where I can talk to you voice-to-voice, I will personally explain to you how utterly wrong and misinformed you are about this issue, as well as how ignorant of the facts you are.
FYI I wasn't implying that you were in the Tea party, I was just using it as an example of a recent movement (just happening to be political), which I feel is being strung along be groups that are in reality working against their best wishes. Do you know by chance who the Koch brothers are?

On Glenn Beck, need I say more? Not to mention that he fakes crying using Vicks Vapo-rub.

Oh, and Fox. Though to be fair I don't watch any mainstream news - Fox, CNN, MSNBC, nadda. My rule of thumb is that if it can be found on basic cable, I don't get within a mile of it. Left, right, up, down, whatever. Mainstream media of all kinds is as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

You know why I am pissed off at the Tea Party? Because of stuff like this, or this. I wouldn't mind them if they would just stop trying to get their points across by screaming and intimidation, and would act civil like liberals/moderates/old school republicans act. Plus they keep throwing the word "fascism" around, as if liberal fascism was even possible. It's not, in fact, liberal fascism is a pretty good oxymoron. Fascism is the fusion of special interests (corporations, religion) with the government, and that is something the right has supported many times. For example, the People's United decision on corporate personhood, the military-industrial complex, or Sharron Angle's belief that seperation of church and state is unconstitutional.

If the problem is government size (which seems to be the sticking point of the Tea Party), and the size of the government is based on degrees of collectivism, then a right wing government is much larger than a left wing one, because it has it's finger's in the pies of big business and big religion. A left wing government (a TRUE left wing government, Obama is just another crooked, corporatist blue-dog) only wants a few social programs to prop people up when they fall, and maybe socialized medicine, but other than that, the government is much smaller, because it keeps it's nose clean of religion and corporations. Not to mention that the left is pro-small business, which results in a less-collective market as well. Now I don't know if the Tea Party is openly supporting corporate intervention in government, or if they simply don't know it is occuring, but either through their action or inaction, they are contributing to corporate fascism in the United States.

Chew on this - Later this week, one of the health reforms that Obama passed is set to kick in. This reform would make it illegal for health insurance companies to deny coverage to children with pre-existing conditions. So how do the companies respond? They drop child coverage completely. How unpatriotic.

Oh, and I'm not anti-Christian. I have full respect for your views, it's when Christians start pushing their beliefs into government that I begin to get perterbed. People like Christine O'Donnell and Sharron Angle would attempt to implant their views into the state if they won office - and people like Newt Gingrish who already have power - which is why I despise them so much. Remember, your religion is yours, keep it that way, and out of government. That's all I ask. If we can keep the wall up between church and state, then we can all get along.

Quote:
As for relativity being "more than a scientific theory", please explain this quote to me:



Please also explain this quote:
It was a joke. A play on words on the idea of moral/cultural relativism. Lighten up. And no, the Conservapedia comment was not a shot at you either, I just thought you heard about their little run in with the media a month ago involving relativity. I didn't know you never heard Conservapedia until after I posted this. For that, I apologize.

And not to blow my own horn, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Anyone with half a brain knows this.
Look who's making hateful comments now...
__________________


The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 09-23-2010 at 04:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-23-2010, 05:18 AM
Woodsprite's Avatar
Olo'eyktan
Woodsprite is very busy.
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Posts: 3,168
Default

Three things:

The "brain" quote has nothing to do with this. Please don't take quotes out of context from other topics.

I am a tea partier and I know what goes on, and you are terribly misinformed. Whenever I have the chance to speak verbally to you about this, I will. The arguments you give are flimsy, and easily answered... God I wish I wasn't so faithful to keeping this on topic...

I, as well as millions of others, think Glenn Beck is one of the most patriotic men in America, and none of the faux, misplaced, or out-of-context quotes you give of him will prove you right in any respect. If you watch the show, I'll take your arguments into account and respond. If you don't watch the show, your arguments are invalid.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Visit our partner sites:

      pandoraworld.ru



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:55 AM.

Based on the Planet Earth theme by Themes by Design


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
All images and clips of Avatar are the exclusive property of 20th Century Fox.