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  #1  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:12 PM
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Perhaps we were already free, and lived happily time ago -and that in spite of the necessary tragedies, the primitive past still has its charm, and looks like almost an utopia.

Perhaps it is the progress of war, rush and efficiency; or unasked duties and commanded responsibilities, or force and fear what makes the people living here miserable.

Perhaps it should not be man at the ideas' service, but the idea before man.

And perhaps we should sacrifice the utopia of order and control, of the global State -the utopia of perfection, in favor of the utopia of freedom.

For we run the risk of turning slaves of concepts: slaves of efficiency, slaves of status, slaves of greater benefit,... let us enslave ourselves to the ideas that will free us. Let us become slaves of love, slaves of truth, slaves of freedom -for they are the only ones which remove all chains and tear down all walls.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:21 PM
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You hold an important point, and one I myself stand behind.

Have our "progress" given us more freedom? Rather the opposite.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:05 PM
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I'm not miserable!
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aihwa View Post
I'm not miserable!


Good! Then this thread has nothing to do with you!
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  #5  
Old 10-05-2010, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Eltu View Post
You hold an important point, and one I myself stand behind.

Have our "progress" given us more freedom? Rather the opposite.
Depends which progress you measure. Some, certainly not... some have.
Look at the revolution in communications, in information... Now that is far more freedom than the previous generation had.
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Old 10-05-2010, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Look at the revolution in communications, in information... Now that is far more freedom than the previous generation had.
Very true. But now this very freedom is being monitored and watched. How long before it will be censored and/or limited.
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  #7  
Old 10-05-2010, 02:35 AM
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Interesting topic.

A shift in utopias is an interesting way of looking at it, and I agree with Eltu in that the shift has been toward the negative. We're nowhere near as free as we used to be.

The world has definitely become more impersonal. In the age of tribalism, "society" meant a group of people who were pretty much one large family. Everyone knew everyone else as if they were their own flesh and blood, and would treat them as such. The entire society would eat together, sleep together, worship together, etc. It's a circular hierarchy, where everyone is treated equally, with maybe one leader. Pretty much what the Na'vi have. Much freer, much more personal.

So yeah, back then, people might have had short, brutish lives (notice I said "might." Personally I think this whole idea of primtive living being a hell hole is bull****), but at least they had short, brutish lives together, and they were exciting.

Today "society" means groups of millions (if not billions) of people who rarely interact, guided by fiat by a governing body which passes down wide-sweeping laws. Other than that, the main interaction of people is through economics and business. Very impersonal (I sometimes note just how much the educational system seems like a production line, and in a way, it is). The "personal" side of society is now a small nuclear family, or a small group of friends, though many people today don't even have these. Plus, because the system must conform to so many people, with so many lifestyles, personal freedoms have been hacked down to a common denominator that can be used to dictate the group as a whole. Obviously the hierarchy is much stricter.

Not to mention how the system bull****s freedom away. Such as monitering the internet in the name of "national security." Pfft, my ass. Freedom in the modern world.

Not even mentioning just how structured, and just plain mundane daily life has become. A far cry from what daily life was like for our ancestors.

So yeah, now we're living long, brutish lives, but now we're doing it bored, scared, alone, and indentured.
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Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 10-05-2010 at 02:52 AM.
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  #8  
Old 10-05-2010, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
The world has definitely become more impersonal. In the age of tribalism, "society" meant a group of people who were pretty much one large family. Everyone knew everyone else as if they were their own flesh and blood, and would treat them as such. The entire society would eat together, sleep together, worship together, etc. It's a circular hierarchy, where everyone is treated equally, with maybe one leader. Pretty much what the Na'vi have. Much freer, much more personal.
Not quite the same thing, but you can still find similar communities within our world today, where people are like family to each other and share so many experiences together. They take a bit of finding and are beholden to the laws of their home countries, but they are there. I have no doubt that if ToS members were in one physical place, we'd have such a society.

I agree that the world is impersonal today, but I also believe that you can change that for yourself! Slightly off-topic post, hope that's ok.
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  #9  
Old 10-06-2010, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Fighter-of-Wars View Post
Very true. But now this very freedom is being monitored and watched. How long before it will be censored and/or limited.
That's why people need to fight for it.
People are too slow to adapt, they're still thinking in physical terms for that when that is gradually becoming obsolete.
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
That's why people need to fight for it.
But where to start? I would if I had a place to start. You stop one bad politician and 10 more come to take his place.

I think it's to late to turn back the tide of limitations being placed on us by our governments. It could have been done maybe 30 or 40 years ago. Somebody start pushing in the right direction. But now not only the governments but also many people are wanting these limitations. They think they need them to be safe. Because that's what they were told.

When people stop thinking what they need to better themselves and ask the government for what it thinks they need., the government will strip you of your freedom, skin you of your desires, and bind you in chains to do its bidding. It has happened before, it will happen again.

This may sound drastic and a little out of this world but don't think for one second that some people in the ranks of leaders wouldn't want this on us. If they could, we would be pawns to do the jobs they want us to do, to fight the battles they want fought.

It will get to where the people that gave the power to the leaders will lose there power of choice and be given the task to blindly follow.
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  #11  
Old 10-06-2010, 04:02 AM
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I hope that somehow, somehow people will get rattled awake someday when they realize the horrible decisions they've made. That eventually the powers that be will push the people too far - and they will do what they've done so many times in the past - and they'll push back, and if history has taught us anything, they'll do it very, very hard.

Maybe one day, when people finally have enough of working 24/7 for crumbs, of environmental destruction, of having every move they make possibly tracked by Big Brother, of special interests - both secular and religious - dictating their lives, of the smoke and mirrors media, and realize that all this time they've been chasing a boogeyman - like the Christians to Neroic Rome and Communists to the Reichstag - they'll act. Hopefully they'll realize all the freedom they've given up (ironically, in the name of freedom), and finally take it back from those that have stolen it from them.

There will be a day when the masses will come out of the ether, and on that day, the pigs and wolves that have been leading the world astray will be in for one hell of a surprise. The powers of the world, the corrupt governments, the corporations, the theocratic religions, the propaganda machines, will all be dethroned by the only thing in this world too big to fail, the people.

F-o-W - Amen. Never doubt what the powers that be of this world would do to you if they had the chance. If they could they'd turn us into Combine Stalkers.
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 10-06-2010 at 04:21 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-06-2010, 05:23 AM
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I'm not miserable!
Neither am I.
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  #13  
Old 10-06-2010, 11:33 AM
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It will happen. the only problem is how long it takes people to realise.
Look at all the great changes in history, all were brought about by EVERYONE realising something was wrong and showing their 'governments' that they weren't going to take it any more.
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  #14  
Old 10-06-2010, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
It will happen. the only problem is how long it takes people to realise.
Look at all the great changes in history, all were brought about by EVERYONE realising something was wrong and showing their 'governments' that they weren't going to take it any more.
*Insert network reference here*
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2010, 02:56 PM
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Epic film is epic
(Yeah, unintentional reference there, but yeah... it actually fits )
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