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Old 12-06-2010, 12:38 AM
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Default It's happening again...

I just reread http://www.tree-of-souls.com/general...y_3_months.htm after a discussion I had earlier this evening.
Once again, I am thinking this. I have read this thread again, and the others. I see that every time, this happens, when people start causing problems, in the name of 'debates', but which are actually little more than arguments, which cause problems for people. In the end, someone gets people to think about it, and everything goes fine for a few months, but it never lasts.


Fairly recently, someone showed me this article:
Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism - Less Wrong - it's a little long, but please read it.
I've had this article open in a tab for ages now, I've read it many times, reflected on it, then buried it again, thought of something else, but at times like this, this article really struck me as what COULD happen. I've seen it happen before. I've seen it happen to places I cared about, not as much as ToS, but I still did. I don't want it to happen here. If anyone here cares then I will bet they don't either. We have ALWAYS been open, but this, with what keeps happening, looks all too real to me. I've ALWAYS valued openness and I ALWAYS will. I look back and I can't think of anything I'd have done differently. But I think that on ToS, sometimes then there have been problems. As Eltu said before, this goes up and down every few months, as people realise they are doing it, then stop, then it starts again. Too often, it is in the guise of a 'debate', a subforum I think has been the cause of more problems than any other but have been happy to keep because people want it, but sometimes, reactions just causes needless problems. We may be a family, and it has been said before that sometimes there are disagreements, but if this goes on too long it risks dividing people.

I am dedicated to ToS. I have nothing else really for me, this last year has been the best time of my life, but also has had some parts where I've felt the worst I have for years, but they just make me appreciate the rest all the more. After all, as one of my favourite quotes says, "There are as many nights as days, and the one is just as long as the other in the year's course. Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness.". This year is both, but it's made me happy for the first real time in my life. To me, that is worth it, having something worth fighting for is important.

ToS CAN last, and it WILL. In the end, it's a hard decision, but I will do what we all have to to keep this as the place we have all come to love. This is why I hate seeing people harm it, in the name of a 'debate'. I look at people who have been here and aren't now, I wonder why. I wonder what we could have done differently. I wonder where they are now, what they are doing. Sometimes I spend so much time and effort thinking about ToS, about now
and about the future that I can't do anything else. I have put my life into ToS and I ALWAYS will.

This evening, someone said ToS will not last and says we should enjoy it while we can. This upset me that someone can feel this way, because I know I will do whatever I can to prevent that. I don't want that to
happen. I can not accept that and never will. I've already promised it to you all, and I know that Avatar will be so successful, I can GUARANTEE you that
people will know it in 20 years, 30, 40.
Please help me make that happen. I'll always be here. I just want to make sure everyone will. We can disagree, but people need to stop taking it personally, holding grudges, leaving, and just stopping talking. Everyone here is what's important to ToS.

Other than that, I've seen a few people giving up on Avatar - I have spent HOURS talking to some people, who want to feel and who know what Avatar gave them, I listen, I understand, make suggestions, then I talk to them later and ask what they did, and they say 'nothing'. I watch people form groups and factions, have rivalries with each other, and forget why are are all here. A lot of people are forgetting WHY they are here, and just sitting on skype talking about what they did last night or whatever. They are forgetting what Avatar did for them, and they are sometimes even being hostile to the people who do still know it. We all learned to See, why are some people forgetting? I see more threads now where people are drifting back into the old ways, losing the message, even talking about doing things which are the opposite of Avatar's message... did it not reach them, or are they just forgetting? Avatar has the potential to change the world, but people need to keep it in their minds.

With that in mind, I'm being completely open. If you want to ask me about the future, about what I'm doing, PLEASE do. All I ask is to remember what ToS means to ALL OF US, that it always will, and to please keep it the place we all love.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:48 AM
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Well written HNM, I felt the passion and the matter of urgency in your voice.
--
Within the passage of time, things will be forgotten. Thoughts and feelings, however, can be rediscovered. We can See, and we are Seeing, and feud and debate narrows that sight of true understanding. The very nature of an argument nowadays is to try to prove the other person is wrong so that the person participating in the argument can feel better about themselves. I have not looked into the debate sub-forum ever in my time that I've been here and on AF in the old days, but I know it's impact without looking at the source. It's distasteful, corrupting, and unpredictable. Not all debates are bad ones, like an informative and detailed debate about Obama Care here in the US. Citing sources of credibale data, good argumentive points on both sides, it's good also for thread drifters because it's incredible informative. The debates that are bad, however, like religion, are nothing but bad news. But as human beings, we tend to look more on the bad side of things than the good things so whenever a debate comes around, it's for a reason. Ranging from being merely curious to the subject of it being stuck in your head for so long that you have to let it out. It's just like how reviews/feedback reports are made for software or for apps on our Iphones: We don't bother complaining about anything that's working; when it doesn't, your as mad as hell and need to vent your frustration.

I understand that were a family here on ToS, and I also feel the need for a good balance. The debate section, I believe, is a vital part of the forum because it keeps us connected to eachother, just by merely seeing eachother's user names and our speech, regardless of how distasteful it is. I agree with your point HNM, we need to not take these things personally and just try to make our points across without any unnecessary conflict, that is until you hear the other person's points (hence an argument).

As a leader of a clan, Id like to tell you, HNM, to be comfortable with the unknown and to take it easy. When one gives someone a gift, the giver is concerned about how the gift will be used. When the giver maintains the gift for the receiver, that concern is constant. But how is that concern helping you out? It certainly won't make things better and it will not stop from whatever is going to happen from happening. Your love for this forum is amazing, and I wish this place was my life, but you know how it is. I hope one day I'll be able to make a difference upon the world that reflects our views on the environment and to eachother.

Note: I make small pauses between my sentences; reading the whole post like a bullet will get you alittle confused
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Like Pandora, it was hard work. Apply it to anything, you'll see the most complex of dreams come to life.
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Last edited by Apollo; 12-06-2010 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:56 AM
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You know I've never really noticed 'any' problems on this forum and I think to myself, what the hell is everyone on about all the time talking about these problems. Meh, I don't know.

ToS will stay the course though. I'll be staying the course too. People find that when they argue with me I don't run away, on top of that they sometimes get 5 points for funniness if they're lucky.
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Last edited by Spock; 12-06-2010 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:58 AM
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Contrary to what you say, I haven't noticed any big problems as of late; however, I can sympathise with you greatly on people forgetting what Avatar truly meant to us all. We need to get back to our roots.
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:00 AM
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Well said, both of you, HNM and Apollo. We're a family, and like any family, there are times of ups and downs, of war and peace, of dissension and accord, but we're a family notwithstanding. There is a common link between us all, a dream we all share, a dream that brought us together in the first place, let us not forget that. Sure, the movie itself, the plot, might fade with time, but it's immaterial qualities that matter. It's our dreams of Pandora, of the Na'vi, of a better fate for the Earth, of better lives for ourselves and humanity, that ties us all together.

The Avatar on the celluloid, or the Avatar on the digital disk are not what matters, what matters is the Avatar in the heart.

I might add more to this, but I need time...to think...
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Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden

Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 12-06-2010 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:13 AM
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Toruk Makto, Admin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
[COLOR="Magenta"]
As a leader of a clan, Id like to tell you, HNM, to be comfortable with the unknown and to take it easy. When one gives someone a gift, the giver is concerned about how the gift will be used. When the giver maintains the gift for the receiver, that concern is constant. But how is that concern helping you out? It certainly won't make things better and it will not stop from whatever is going to happen from happening. Your love for this forum is amazing, and I wish this place was my life, but you know how it is. I hope one day I'll be able to make a difference upon the world that reflects our views on the environment and to eachother.
Thank you... that means more than I can put into words right now, I'm too emotional and tired right now
As long as we have people who are dedicated like you, we can never go too far wrong
I've put so much of my life into ToS, some days it's been all I've done, all I've thought about, and particularly in the early days, I have spent entire nights awake on ToS keeping it going, more than one day in a row.
Seeing responses like yours, it reminds me that it's all worth it, and brings tears to my eyes
I just wish more people could keep Avatar in their minds and remember why we are all here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto View Post
Well said, both of you, HNM and Apollo. We're a family, and like any family, there are times of ups and downs, of war and peace, of dissension and accord, but we're a family notwithstanding. There is a common link between us all, a dream we all share, a dream that brought us together in the first place, let us not forget that. Sure, the movie itself, the plot, might fade with time, but it's immaterial qualities that matter. It's our dreams of Pandora, of the Na'vi, of a better fate for the Earth, of better lives for ourselves and humanity, that ties us all together.
Our dreams are certainly something I never anticipated, but I still want to try and keep the connection that brought us together in the first place as an important part of that.

Quote:
The Avatar on the celluloid, or the Avatar on the digital disk are not what matters, what matters is the Avatar in the heart.
I agree
Maybe people will return with time, I just end up overthinking this and wondering why. It's always been a flaw of mine to do that, but until now, I've never had anything I truly cared about enough to make me feel like this so strongly.
I know we share so much now, but I still think that Avatar is important. It was from that experience that we had things in common to begin with. I don't want that to be forgotten. I don't want ToS to become somewhere without that truly unique feeling that came form Avatar, from being inspired, from being lonely, from feeling at home on Pandora.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:56 AM
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Now if only I could get on AF so we could get Unil, Aygo, Ja'k, and Hawnu over here!!
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The Dreamer's Manifesto

Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad.

"You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception

"Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
I've already promised it to you all, and I know that Avatar will be so successful, I can GUARANTEE you that people will know it in 20 years, 30, 40.
That's the spirit! After all, people still remember Titanic!
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:29 AM
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Heh, for me, Habits die hard. I still have dreams, or visions, of my shack I keep my location as. I drive to draw it one day... its so difficult to draw freeform and get a realistic result. I got alot of work ahead of me. I'm just so messed up in the head that I cannot stick true to my goals (among a great deal of other things). I get impatient for no reason. I'm pretty sure it all begins in the morning. When I wake up, I only have 30 minutes to catch the bus and their are too many things to do in that little time frame. I would go to bed earlier if it wasn't for this feeling of escaping school by means of staying up longer. Ahh I have no idea, I need a drink.. heh
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Cameron may have born Pandora, but living there must be made by your own hands. I have made Pandora with my hands, with color, oil, paint, and pencil.

Like Pandora, it was hard work. Apply it to anything, you'll see the most complex of dreams come to life.
[Away from my Pizza Rolls! nehahhh!!]

My hand-drawn Neytiri
Silronsan Taronyu (Clever Hunter)
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:42 AM
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well, speaking of openness, I believe I owe you some money HNM haha

but I 100% agree with your thread. I try not to start arguments, and if so and someone gets upset, my guilty conscience takes over and I try to make it right. so like said before if I upset anyone by any means, you can tell me. I maybe have not seen it, or just ignored it and forgot about it.

and I agree about the whole Avatar thing too... people have been falling out of it and like said do things the opposite Avatar has taught us. Avatar still makes my head spin. Avatar still is a reminder of the day I was fully woken up, made my head turn, made me nearly go out of my mind, but you know what? If I had the opportunity, I would go back to December 18th, 2009, 7:05pm when I'm leaving my school to catch the showing of Avatar opening night. And I wouldn't be the same. Something changed in me. Even my sister noticed it at the dinner table one evening. "He's been different since seeing that Avatar movie," she pointed out. And its true. You all know it, I know it, and it was obvious to my sister too... she didn't know what I don't think, but she noticed something was different. So what has happened? have people forgotten what opened their eyes? Has people just fell back into the flow?

Very good thread HNM, I keep thinking I have more to say, but I cannot think of anything right now I'm tired I'm going to bed haha
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:41 PM
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Very good post HNM. I admit that I have stayed away from TOS in the past couple of months because during some of those times of debate, etc I felt that I was unwanted here . However, that was probably not the case and perhaps I needed a break from it. I'm back now. I guess I wasn't really gone but I didn't post as much as I used to. All forums have their ups and downs. I agree that we need to get back to what we all loved about Avatar and the discussions that grew from it. I truly missing seeing Profoundheart on here. He had such beautiful posts about love which was so important to the discussion. I want to get back to that.

I don't mind debating if it is a good debate and if it is done with respect for the other person and isn't just mindless yelling and talking points. I think that is also why i decided for a time to get away. I want to thank you for everything you have done on the site. I have met some wonderful people on here and that is probably why I know I can't leave . It is refreshing that there are many thoughtful people here on TOS who do want to talk about more serious and profound subjects. That is also one of the beautiful aspects of TOS and it is probably another gift that Avatar has given, the ability to see and to dream of a better world.
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