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Old 07-06-2011, 08:54 AM
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Default More weapons to Saudi Arabia

Germany is about to sign a deal with Saudi Arabia to deliver 200 high tech tanks.

If they do that, they loose all the remaining credibility that they actually support "freedom and democracy" in the middle East. To deliver them to a country that kicks womens rights with steel boots, that disregards human rights and that is not a real democracy, they could as well just send more tanks to Gaddafi or any other despot. And then when in 5 years the people in that area revolt and german tanks are used against the general population, everyone will claim that this was not forseeable. Sickos.
Of course this deal is part of a larger picture in which the US (who will deliver over 80 fighter jets and several dozens of helicopters) and Germany deliver weapons to Saudi Arabia with agreement of Israel. The goals are to protect the oil production in the country (probably not only from other countries but also from the own population who might want to stop selling off the only resources they have or just want to have a democracy) and to "keep an eye on Iran" (however putting more weapons next to that country will solve this particular problem instead of intensifying it is a mystery)
There is still opposition in the parliament and the green party has requested an explanation and details of the plan, so I do have hope that it will not go through. But just them trying it shows once again that there will not be peace in the middle east as long as there is oil to fight over. The oil wars have begun a long time ago and now with peak oil past us they seem to intensify.

Campact | Panzer-Export nach Saudi-Arabien stoppen!
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:41 PM
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:35 PM
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Typical. Always money. It isn't even a one off thing, various other countries have sold them weapons before.
The world should learn from the US' mistakes with Iran - all the stuff they have sold them is obsolete now, but they did in effect supply a hostile country with weapons. In this case, they are still supplying an oppressive dictatorship even if it isn't openly hostile.

Weapons should be provided to rebels in these countries, not sold to the government.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:48 PM
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The governmental support of the Arab Spring is just a sham. They will only support it as long as it is the most profitable solution for their corporate masters. As soon as a more profitable route is found, in this case supporting Saudi Arabia and the OPEC thugs, then that's where they'll point their real support. They can spout off all they want about supporting democracy in the Middle East, but we know where their hearts, minds, and policies really are at.

Ain't doublethink a beautiful thing?

Business, and war, never changes, and it seems as global corporatism reaches it's cancer stages, the two are becoming a more unified force. Corporations and their puppet governments know the best bottom line is found with dealing with the current despotic status quo, and that despotic status quo won't change until there are systemic changes in the world.
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:59 AM
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All I get from this is you're not a big fan of Saudi Arabia are you? Yes we supplied them with weapons to defend themselves, Saudi Arabia wouldn't do anything with these 200 tanks and whatever else we have sold them because if they do, they will be completely and utterly destroyed by the US and UN. Plus they need our $ for their oil, without this money, they turn back into a 3rd world country again.

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The world should learn from the US' mistakes with Iran
The Iran-Contra began as an operation to free American hostages being held by terrorist groups with Iranian ties. It was planned that Israel would ship weapons to Iran, and then the U.S. would resupply Israel and receive the Israeli payment. The Iranian recipients promised to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U.S. hostages, who were being held by the Lebanese Shia Islamist group Hezbollah
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X View Post
All I get from this is you're not a big fan of Saudi Arabia are you? Yes we supplied them with weapons to defend themselves,
Haha - FUNNY - yeah, sure, defend themselves...
against revolutionaries maybe?
Like Lybia or Tunis?
"We" sold that crackpot Ghaddafi enough weapons to kick the population seriously in the butt once they started to question the leadership and now we can sell weapons to the forces that fight him. Great business, lots of "collateral murder".
This has happened over and over again. Western Industrial nations sending weapons to countries that do not value human rights, freedom, democracy just because they want the oil or resources and thus prefer to have a stable dictatorship there instead of an empowered democracy that could actually say "no we want to keep our oil/food/wood/minerals for our own economy" (this applies globally, not just in the middle east).

Just a reminder of why I am really not a "big fan" of Saudi Arabia:
Quote:
All women, regardless of age, are required to have a male guardian. Women cannot vote or be elected to high political positions.[1] Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world that prohibits women from driving. The World Economic Forum 2009 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 130th out of 134 countries for gender parity. It was the only country to score a zero in the category of political empowerment.
I got a slight taste of that when I was in Iran for 3 weeks. And they are in that department very progressive compared to Saudia Arabia really.

Why exactly do we send these people weapons?

Oh yes... They are perfect for operations in inner cities and are regarded the most eeffective tank against civil uprisings - "we" would not want a womens revolution in Saudi Arabia, right? this could leave "us" with higher gas prices at the pump.


The western industrial nations will simply support everyone that ensures their ability to get cheap resources from these countries - it does matter zip if that happens to be dictatorships or democracies that are indebted to you for helping them get to power.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:14 PM
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I've only just noticed this thread We know from history that German tanks are absolutely awesome and they're being handed over to the forces in countries that would happily gun down their own people. Words fail....

These tanks should be deployed alongside the existing NATO forces to bring down the oppresive governments in Libya and Syria. I mean 200?! What Arab ground force could stand against that?

Last edited by Marvellous Chester; 07-08-2011 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X View Post
All I get from this is you're not a big fan of Saudi Arabia are you? Yes we supplied them with weapons to defend themselves, Saudi Arabia wouldn't do anything with these 200 tanks and whatever else we have sold them because if they do, they will be completely and utterly destroyed by the US and UN. Plus they need our $ for their oil, without this money, they turn back into a 3rd world country again.
The issue is over internal oppression. You know, like Libya.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:08 AM
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So, they shouldn't be able to purchase weapons because they don't follow your social or moral code. Nice.

Then you go on to assume that any change in their social or moral code will result in violence. Very nice.

You stay classy.


(Remember Women's suffrage in Europe and the US? Yeah, we managed even with our government being armed with state of the art equipment. Unbased assumptions are so fun!)
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Old 07-09-2011, 02:11 AM
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Oh so you think the people in Egypt ****ed up in their protest because they were not harmless enough so the dictotor was forced to put tanks on the streets? And of course in all the other cases in the middle east it was solely the protesters fault that the dictators used tanks against them?

What is this - an argument like "she is responsible herself for being raped because she dressed in a way so that the rapist really had not much choice but to succumb to his sexual needs".

And Isard, are you really endorsing weapons delivery to a country that violates human rights, that treats us women like **** and that is ruled not by the people even remotely? Would you also be in favour for Iran getting these deliveries? Or North Korea? Or would you also "not deny them the right to buy nuclear weapons"?
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"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:29 AM
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Auroraglacialis, I love how you only quotes the first sentence
here
Quote:
Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X View Post
Saudi Arabia wouldn't do anything with these 200 tanks and whatever else we have sold them because if they do, they will be completely and utterly destroyed by the US and UN. Plus they need our $ for their oil, without this money, they turn back into a 3rd world country again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
The issue is over internal oppression. You know, like Libya.
And no that isn't the issue, the issue, as clearly stated by there thread title is More weapons to Saudi Arabia. Not Saudi Arabia is the devil because they don't give women rights. (every country on this planet at one point or another didn't give women rights) ((I'm also not saying I agree with their culture))

Quote:
Originally Posted by auroraglacialis View Post
Would you also be in favour for Iran getting these deliveries? Or North Korea? Or would you also "not deny them the right to buy nuclear weapons"?
Also, don't be naive and vindictive. You know Saudi Arabia doesn't have a "self proclaimed" dictator trying to kill the rest of the world.
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auroraglacialis View Post
Oh so you think the people in Egypt ****ed up in their protest because they were not harmless enough so the dictotor was forced to put tanks on the streets? And of course in all the other cases in the middle east it was solely the protesters fault that the dictators used tanks against them?

What is this - an argument like "she is responsible herself for being raped because she dressed in a way so that the rapist really had not much choice but to succumb to his sexual needs".

And Isard, are you really endorsing weapons delivery to a country that violates human rights, that treats us women like **** and that is ruled not by the people even remotely? Would you also be in favour for Iran getting these deliveries? Or North Korea? Or would you also "not deny them the right to buy nuclear weapons"?



Revolution is not social reform. YOU, brought up human rights. YOU.


Second paragraph, again, where the hell did I say anything like that?

Third paragraph. Every country should have access to nuclear weapons. The more people holding weapons, the lesser the chance that somebody will use them. More people pissed off that you started WWIII? Less incentive to start it.

You're getting desperate. Whats next? Third grade insults?
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isard View Post
Third paragraph. Every country should have access to nuclear weapons. The more people holding weapons, the lesser the chance that somebody will use them. More people pissed off that you started WWIII? Less incentive to start it.
I agree with everything you usually say except this, the north Koreans probably wouldn't hesitate to bomb South Korea. There are people out there that do stupid things because they thing their deity makes them immortal or something idk..its just a bad idea
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:43 AM
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As any sovereign country, Saudi Arabia should be able to make its own decisions and act accordingly. Can you imagine turmoil in Saudi Arabia??? The oil price could easily reach the 300 dollars per barrel. Plus, Saudi Arabia can be considered a "moderate" regime, where there's at least a decent level of freedom (which, of course, can be shadowed by Muslim practices).
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:07 AM
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^ So was Gaddafi before this year, but look where we are now. But I guess oil can make even the worst bastard look like a nice guy when there's money to be made. And I guess oil is more important than liberty and human rights (becuase believe me, the Arab Spring IS coming to Saudi Arabia, likely sooner than later). Real nice, and all the OPEC thugs keep laughing all the way to the bank.
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Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 07-09-2011 at 04:21 AM.
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