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Old 05-14-2010, 11:12 PM
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Default Walas00 - Adjectives Lesson [Copy From IRC]

I managed to log the entire lesson, [and corrected spelling mistakes, I'm THAT awesome] Haha joking, but here's the key.

Walas00 - Teacher - Light Blue

----

Questions - Students - Green

----

Left in-comments- Students - Light Pink

----------------------------------------

BEGINNING OF LESSON - ADJECTIVES

<Walas00> This won't take too long.
<Walas00> I've chosen a short subject to discuss - adjectives.
<Walas00> They're already covered in a lesson of mine on ToS, but it's always better to ... you know, discuss it.
<Walas00> An adjective is a word used to describe something, to show it's attribute
<Walas00> There are two basic ways to use adjectives in English. (There might be more I guess...)
<Walas00> So, let's make an example.
<Walas00> We see a river that is pretty long, and you want to tell someone what you saw.
<Walas00> You could say:
<Walas00> "I saw a long river." - or - "I saw a river which was long."
<Walas00> The first sentence uses an attribute.
<Walas00> I saw a long river- The river's main attribute is that it's long.
<Walas00> The second one is a typical adjective usage, "a river is long" - what is what.
<Walas00> Let's cover the typical usage first, since it's the easiest one to remember.
<Walas00> "A long river" would be:
<Walas00> Kilvan ngim lu
<Walas00> "river" "long" "to be"
<Walas00> Translates very simply into English.
<Walas00> A river is long (since we can move the words around, we could say "kilvan lu ngim", or whatever. The receiver will definitely understand the message.)
<Walas00> It is logical when you think about it, since we use that kind of construction all the time
<Walas00> "The weather is nice", "This food is yummy", "You are nice"
<Walas00> Object - attribute - "to be"
<Walas00> Adjective^
<Walas00> Since attributes are a bit different... let's discuss them now
<Walas00> The first example sentence was "A long river" (typical was "A river is long")
<Walas00> As I've said, "long" is "river"'s main attribute, and we want to say something more about "a long river" (a sentence "a river is long" is a complete sentence, it would be hard to put more information in it)
<Walas00> We didn't need any prefixes or suffixes with the typical usage, but with attributes we will use a simple prefix "-a-"
<Walas00> We put this little particle in the adjective. (the describing word - here: long)
<Walas00> The important thing to note here is: We put it on the side closest to the noun it's describing.
<Walas00> So it would look like this:
<Walas00> Noun a-adjective , and adjective-a noun
<Walas00> Using the example above:
<Walas00> "A long river"
<Walas00> Kilvan angim
<Walas00> Kilvan a-ngim
<Walas00> "river" ATTRIBUTE-"long"

<Wallflower> Whats the difference?
<Wallflower> The long river verses a LONG river?
<Wallflower> Why a need for two spellings /usages in the attribute form?

<Walas00> Well, I guess it depends on what do you want to say.
<Walas00> "The river that is long is now dry" vs "The long river is now dry"
<Walas00> It's up to you Wallflower which construction will you use, just keep in mind that the receiver will have to understand the message.
<Walas00> That's the most important goal-
<Walas00> The difference grammaticly is:
<Walas00> Typical "kilvan ngim lu" (a river is long) - attribute "kilvan angim" (a long river)

<@HumanNoMore> So there's no actual specific time when you have to use it one way?
<Walas00> Not really-
<Walas00> Hmm, let's say we'd like to describe someone.
<Walas00> "You are nice"
<Walas00> Nga siltsan lu
<Walas00> We use the typical construction here, why?
<Walas00> Nga asiltsan - That would simply mean "a nice you"
<Walas00> And that doesn't make much sense

<mikkowilson> ..But we wnt to speak directly to them?
<mikkowilson> ..Instead of just describing them?
<mikkowilson> ..But we wnt to speak directly to them?
<mikkowilson> ..Instead of just describing them?

<@HumanNoMore> If you're describing them, then it would be (person) a-siltsan, I think
<@HumanNoMore> Nga siltsan lu would be telling someone they are.

<Walas00> Yeah, that would be "You are nice", and that's correct.
<Walas00> Since we're actually saying, that "you are nice", it's a fact.
<Walas00> "lu" - to be <- that's the word that will help you with both constructions
<Walas00> "lu" - is/are <- in this case
<Walas00> "He is nice"
<Walas00> Po siltsan lu
<Walas00> "A nice he dies"
<Walas00> Po asiltsan terkup

<Wallflower> Why would you say a nice he dies?
<Walas00> In the second sentence we want to concentrate on the fact that a person dies
<Walas00> it's just an example
<Walas00> we don't want to actually say that a person IS nice (lack of "lu")

<mikkowilson>
<Walas00> Here's another example
<Walas00> "My white socks are too big"
<Walas00> "White" is an attribute for "socks"
<Walas00> "My socks are white" - (are - "lu")

<@HumanNoMore> I don't know Na'vi words for white or socks
<@HumanNoMore> Don't know if they have a word for socks hahaha

<Walas00> It's not for translation, lol.
<Walas00> It's just an example to point differences between attributes and the typical usage.
<Walas00> So yeah, if you want to say that something is nice/bad/cool/awesome, you want to use "lu" there, since something IS nice/bad/etc.

<mikkowilson> Oeru atana socks?
<mikkowilson> Oeru atana socks lu?

<Walas00> You don't use "lu" with attributes "-a-"
<mikkowilson> Oeru tanaa socks lu?
<mikkowilson> FAIL.

<Walas00> "You are nice"
<mikkowilson> Oeru atan socks lu?
<Walas00> According to your method.
<Walas00> "Nga asiltsan lu" - "A nice you are ..."

<@HumanNoMore> Doesn't atan mean light?
<@HumanNoMore>
<mikkowilson> Oeru atan [socks] lu
<Wallflower> Can we get back to the topic, I will never need to say socks.
<mikkowilson> Yes it does .. closes to "white" I could find

<Walas00> Anyway, let's continue.
<Walas00> Let's move to the famous prefix le-
<Walas00> You might have seen it with "leNa'vi"
<Walas00> le- basicaly turns a noun into an adjective

<@HumanNoMore> Ah... I wondered how that worked
<@HumanNoMore> Like leNa'vi

<Walas00> A good example:
<Walas00> "Poland language" -> with le- before Poland : "Polish language"

<mikkowilson> Aha!
<Walas00> Language le-Poland
<Walas00> Same with all other nouns
<Walas00> Why leNa'vi ?
<Walas00> Because it's "the Na'vi language":

<@HumanNoMore> So leskxawng = how most people act?
<Walas00> Li'fya leNa'vi
<Walas00> "Language" ADJ-"the People"
<Walas00> The people-ish language.
<Walas00> Leskxawng - Idiotish.
<Walas00> Yeah.
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Last edited by Mune; 05-14-2010 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:14 PM
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<mikkowilson> Nice.
<Walas00> Again let's get back to the attributes and adjectives.
<Walas00> Attribute - stands for describing what the object is like, without concentrating on that within the sentence (we can continue the sentence, for example: "A cute cat walked past my door")

<@HumanNoMore> Hehe
<Walas00> Typical construction - used when whole sentence is focused on describing something (the sentence can't be continued so easily without further language knowledge : "A cat is cute" (the information about that the cat walked past my door can't be put here, since it would all become chaotic))
<mikkowilson> Sevìna palulukan tìran oe [door] - ? (Just practising)
<Walas00> Tute asiltsan terkup lu - A nice person is dead
<Walas00> Tute siltsan lu - A person is nice (can't add anywhere here the info that the person is actually dead)
<Walas00> It's all just grammatic examples of what I mean.
<Walas00> So yeah... Let's sum it all up.
<Walas00> Saying good night, for example.
<Walas00> "May to you be a good night"
<Walas00> We can grab our knowledge from the "asking for well being" sentence.
<Walas00> We will use the dative suffix -ru (Giving something to someone)
<Walas00> Ngaru lu txon asiltsan.
<Walas00> You-DAT to.be night ATTR-nice
<Walas00> To you, may be, a nice night.
<Walas00> Why did we use attribute here? Because we want to focus on saying goodbye, instead of wishing someone a night that is nice.

<Wallflower> But we never said goodbye?!
<Wallflower> The focus still is on the nice night.

<Walas00> Kiyevame is goodbye.
<Wallflower> Oh.
<Walas00> Ngaru lu txon asiltsan is goodnight.
<Walas00> Txon - Night.

<mikkowilson> How about "goodbye to you; have a good night"?
<Wallflower> Can i try?!
<Walas00> Go ahead Wallflower
<Wallflower> kiyevame lu, (dont know have) txon asiltsan ?
<Wallflower> I used 'nice' instead of 'good'.
<Wallflower> I think I failed.

<Mune> To 'have' something, isn't it 'yä' on the end of the noun?
<Mune> To show possession?

<Walas00> Well first of all you've forgot to mention who are you refering to.
<Wallflower> OHH
<mikkowilson> "kìyevame ngaru, sìltsana txon ngahu"?
<Walas00> -ya is for posession, yes, but -ru (dative) is to mention that something is given to someone, as in "Ngaru lu fpom" - You have well being (TO YOU is well being)
<Wallflower> Kiyevame ngaru lu (?)
<Walas00> "Goodbye to you, may a nice night be with you", I like that.
<Walas00> Hmm Wallflower, pretty good, but without the "lu" part.

<Wallflower> Oh yeah, lu is for 'are'.
<Walas00> Oh wait.
<mikkowilson> "goodby to-you be" Sounds silly, yeah.
<Walas00> Ahh wait wait wait
<Walas00> WallFlower might be right.
<Walas00> "Ngaru lu fpom srak?"
<Walas00> There is a "lu" used with dative
<Walas00> So
<Walas00> "Kiyevame ngaru lu" <- that's correct

<Wallflower> Yay!
<mikkowilson> Well done.
<Walas00> Yeah, mikkowilson, "lu" must be put there.
<Walas00> But I have to admin, you're making good progress mikkowilson.
<Walas00> You too, Wallflower.

<Wallflower> It takes me a while
<Walas00> Let's see mikkowilson.
<mikkowilson> Uh oh.
<Walas00> "To you may BE goodbyes"
<Walas00> BE
<Walas00> ^

<mikkowilson> No, lets See Walas00
<Walas00> to.be
<Walas00> Hehe
<Walas00> To.be is lu
<Walas00> To you may BE goodbyes
<Walas00> Ngaru LU Kiyevame
<Walas00> Yeah, that's definately correct, since now we could combine "lu" into past and future tenses, but that's way ahead of us.
<Walas00>
<Walas00> There is sooooo much stuff here.
<Walas00> Grammatical traps
.
<Wallflower> Lesson over...?
<Walas00> Well- I can give you a small bonus if you want.
<Wallflower> Yes yes bonus
<Walas00> xD I love my students
<mikkowilson> kä kä kä!
<Walas00> hahah
<Wallflower> Awww
<Wallflower> They love you too!
<mikkowilson> (kä = go)
<mikkowilson> *group hug*

<Walas00> Alright, with adjectives, and all that "nice" words... aaw Wallflower
<Walas00> Anyway, we've used a lot of "nice" here
<Walas00> What if we wanted to say that we feel nice ?

<Wallflower> Oel siltsan lu? (?)
<Walas00> We have the adjective, and we know how to say "I"
<Walas00> That would mean "I am nice"

<Wallflower> Thats we are nice? or were nice?
<mikkowilson> Oel sìltsan lelu? (?)
<Walas00> Anyway... back on topic.
<Walas00> Where did you get <el> from mikkowilson?

<mikkowilson> le = moun to adjective...
<Walas00> We'll be done soon here.
<Walas00> Ok, let's finish this before midnight here...
<Walas00> We will use verb "to feel" when we want to say about how we feel.
<Walas00> "I feel nice"
<Walas00> Oe 'efu siltsan.
<Walas00> No prefixes or anything, works like typical construction, but instead of "lu" we use a different adjective (description)
<Walas00> Oe lu siltsan.
<Walas00> Oe 'efu siltsan.

<mikkowilson> Aaaaah.
<Walas00> So yeah, you can change the verb.
<Walas00> Here's a nice sentence to translate.

<mikkowilson> Oe 'efu ketxen.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:14 PM
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<Walas00> "To you may be a nice death"
<Walas00> Try to translate it Mikkowilson.


-SHORT PAUSE- [Hehehe]

<Walas00> Remember that there's BE in that sentence
<Walas00> And think about -ru in "Ngaru lu fpom" (to you may be well being)

<mikkowilson> Ngaru lu sìltsana terkup
<Walas00> \m/ Correct!
<mikkowilson> Whoo!
<Walas00> Good, good
<Walas00> That's great

<mikkowilson> You rock Walas00
<Walas00> If you'll accidentally remember siltsan, 'efu, or anything from this, you might want to remember a simple word
<Walas00> nitram - happy
<Walas00> Hehe, thanks xD
<Walas00> Nitram - it's like nitro, but tram

<mikkowilson> Nitram huh .. Me likey.
<Mune> Lesson concluded?
<Mune>

<Walas00> I guess
<Walas00> *bell*
<Walas00> Lesson lasted for 55 minutes, EOT


LESSON ENDS HERE
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:19 PM
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* certified valid

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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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Old 05-15-2010, 12:31 AM
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is all this going into the book/thing you are making?
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:37 AM
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I think so. Not just raw IRC logs of course...
I've got some ideas how to put explanations of things, just got to test them.
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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walas00 View Post
<Wallflower> Kiyevame ngaru lu (?)
<Walas00> "Goodbye to you, may a nice night be with you", I like that.
<Walas00> Hmm Wallflower, pretty good, but without the "lu" part.
<Wallflower> Oh yeah, lu is for 'are'.
<Walas00> Oh wait.
<mikkowilson> "goodby to-you be" Sounds silly, yeah.
<Walas00> Ahh wait wait wait
<Walas00> WallFlower might be right.
<Walas00> "Ngaru lu fpom srak?"
<Walas00> There is a "lu" used with dative
<Walas00> So
<Walas00> "Kiyevame ngaru lu" <- that's correct
Okay, let me ask about this

Kiyevame ngaru lu... I know Kiyevame is good bye, but actually it directly translates to "may (we) see soon" (a wish for future).

So i think you can't say "May we see soon to-you is"... it's messy. Also, since it's possible to say kiyevame trray, kiyevame ye'rin and all kinds of other forms, I think "Kiyevame ngaru lu" isn't correct.

I believe it's like the same that we won't say "Eywa ngahu ngaru lu", just makes no sense. Oeru tiyawr srak?
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:16 PM
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Nice
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:12 PM
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Hmm never examined the origin of word "Kiyevame". You might be right.
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Quote:
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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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Old 05-16-2010, 04:57 PM
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Allright, I've tried to analyze the word Kiyevame @ KalaKuival

Kìyevame (root word Kame - to See) - K<ìy><iv>ame - not sure, but appearantly "i" changed into "e" for some reason.

<ìy> - close future (verb tense)
<iv> - imperative mood (eg. "See you soon" (an event you wish to happen), "See you
soon", "Catch you at dinner")

As a conclusion, Kìyevame itself means "see [someone] in close future" (Kìyame - "to see in close future").

See you in close future - Oe-l Nga-ti K<ìy><iv>ame
Works same as Oe-l Nga-ti Kam<ei>e
just different particles used...

What'cha think?
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Quote:
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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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Old 05-16-2010, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walas00 View Post
Kìyevame (root word Kame - to See) - K<ìy><iv>ame - not sure, but appearantly "i" changed into "e" for some reason.
According to Na'vi in a Nutshell document at Learnnavi.org:


Last edited by Fosus; 05-16-2010 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:21 PM
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That explains it.
I still would argue about the translation, since "Kiyevame" itself doesnt mention who may be seeing who in the future...
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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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Old 05-16-2010, 09:01 PM
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Well, you do say it to someone... And i think it applies to the ones who you talk to
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Old 05-17-2010, 11:07 AM
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What if you'd like to say that "You'll be seeing him soon" ?

Ngal Poti Kiyevame

Kiyevame itself is just a verb, it needs pronouns to work... at least...
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(Avatar) [...] It woke up something that had been asleep for a long time. As a child, when you first paid any attention to a butterfly, or a flower, or bird, you had certain feelings growing inside you, seeing the beauty of life for the first time. As we grew, it became something we saw every day and began to ignore the feeling of awe we had as a child.[...]
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