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  #31  
Old 09-29-2010, 12:57 PM
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Because 12PM is the first hour of the afternoon, 11PM is the last, then it goes to 12am (0AM in 24 hour)
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  #32  
Old 09-29-2010, 01:47 PM
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Ah ok, makes sense. I just thought I had a deja vu, because you posted basically the same statement as before (Is Eywa a fungal organism?) in Is Eywa a fungal organism? - so I though "man, I just read that before I wrote that reply"

Anyways - I still hope someone has a nice screenshot of that screen readout when Grace shows Norm the signal transduction. And on Eywa beeing supernatural - I think there ARE some hints for that in some way. Like the "signs" with the woodsprites... How would Eywa send a sign if she did not see something coming, how did she "control" the woodsprites to act like they did. Also the (sadly cut) scene of Jake seeing Toruk as his spirit animal that came to him without direct contact is a bit mystical. Still - there may be explanations without supernatural for this, though I think I remember reading a comment of JC that he intended to give the impression of a supernatural Eywa and not merely a physical entity... but I cant find it, so I cant prove it.
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  #33  
Old 09-30-2010, 04:04 PM
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There

As for supernatural... I do disagree, with the atokirina, I had an interesting theory a while ago about their senses and how they may be 'programmed' in a way as to what they are attracted to. For Toruk, I'm no expert on that kind of thing, but isn't it supposed to reflect the person's personality, rather than any future events?
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  #34  
Old 09-30-2010, 05:03 PM
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Yeah - the case for supernatural is not really a clean one

But on the roots. Thanks for the image. I think one can see, that some parts of the roots are dark, while others have lines along them that light up. This looks a bit like this:
or this: . So I dont want to debate too much here, as this is a bit loony to debate on these details on a fictional representation of a world, but to me it sure looks a bit like the roots are more covered in something that transmits the signals. Maybe Eywa is more at home in a symbiotic lifeform that grows along the roots of the trees or maybe the trees themselves as zooplantae have that ability to grow these structures on the roots - but it seems a bit (center bottom of the screen) like not the whole root is the conductor, but something that exists on its surface.
But from one screenshot, it's hard to say. Guess I need to go to the theatre again or get the DVD after all...
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  #35  
Old 09-30-2010, 06:13 PM
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I think it's clearer with the animation that it shows the signal actually moving along... as it's a scan that scans 'through' them, it's showing the centre of the roots where the actual nerve-like fibres are, rather than the outside which is more to protect them.
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  #36  
Old 10-01-2010, 10:09 AM
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Ok, ok - well in any case - I think the comparison of zooplantae to funghi in respect to them beeing both neither completly plant nor animal is still a good point and a network of zooplantae would in some way be the Pandora equivalent of a mycelium network on Earth. Of course we dont know enough about what the Biology on Pandora is like to know this. In some ways, the trees and plants (we dont even know which trees and plants participate in that network - sigh) on Pandora seem to connect in a way that on Earth is not seen, while on Earth we can see that connection in funghi that connect large areas and even link trees together. So I think there is a similarity, but because you cant compare apples and purple fruits on a distant moon (or biology and exobiology), quite obviously there cant be a "this is that" comparison, just a homologous development or similarity in any case...
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"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
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  #37  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:16 PM
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Default Fungi can be considered concious...

"To say that these networks are conscious and actually act like neurons is a bit of a stretch, as they have no electrical signal transduction..."

The key to having a functional organism whether it be single celled or multicellular is intercellular communication. Cells have numerous communication pathways through which they send messages to one another. Neurons are simply, specialized cells that send direct messages which can direct movement of muscular tissues, or other desired bodily effects.

What makes a 'being' concious is all of the connections neurons make in the brain. Infact, the ability of neurons to store information comes from their capacity to forge many connections between one another-like a network. Fungal cells form many miles in length with numerous connections. It is quite possible and most likely probable that fungi not only communicate, but store information through biochemical means. True, this isn't the same communication method as neurons, but that dosnt mean they don't create a sort of conciousness.
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  #38  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:24 PM
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Communication and sentience (or indeed, even conscious thought) aren't interdependent, so it's certainly possible
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  #39  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:40 PM
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"The quote is one of Stamets' replies to a question posted underneath his TED talk video.
Do I think such a thing might be true? No. I kind of want to, it's a beautiful idea, but you know how the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the evidence isn't quite extraordinary enough at the moment."

Biologically, one of the criteria for being a living thing is the ability to respond to stimuli or shifting abiotic factors in the environment. If a structure like a branch (which also becomes the mycelium's food) falls above the organism it will have some means of 'sensing' it.

It has been proven scientifically that fungi coevolved with plants and form a symbiosis which without, many plants could not live.

Through experimentation it has been shown that plants with fungal symbionts grow larger and faster. These plants are drought resistant as well as defended from dangerous pathogens.

Within a foot step, enough mycelium hyphae is coild up to form a length of eight miles when stretched out.

It has been shown that mycelium connect multiple trees belonging to different species and that when one tree is severely lacking in nutrients, the mycelium will reroute nutrients toward that particular tree.

Stamets has also shown that mycelium can purify water by acting as a filter, they produce chemicals which can destroy biological weapons, and they produce powerful antibacterial agents.

He has studied these organisms for 30 years. In his book- 'Mycelium Running: How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World' he explains the experiments he and others have done. He provides pictures, explaining his ideas. Stamets even gives a list of references at the end of this book. He is the foremost authority on fungi.
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  #40  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:50 PM
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"Neurons work with electric potential, which is quite fast, while the others seem to work chemically, beeing rather slow."

The pathways through which neurons communicate (bio-electrically) are chemically induced and are bio-chemical in nature. If you have many groups of connections then speed dosnt necessarily matter because there are alterior routes for the signal to move through. Being intelligent and concious is about the CONNECTIONS these cells make.
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  #41  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:54 PM
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"While fungi do belong in kingdom animalia, they do not have true nervous systems; they only mimic them structurally."

Fungi do not belong to the kingdom 'animalia.' They belong to the kingdom 'Fungi.' While they are close to animals in terms of genetics and evolution the cells as well as the life of a fungus are completely different from that of an animal.
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  #42  
Old 01-01-2011, 09:18 AM
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Eywa most likely exhibits some characteristics of a Fungi; however, I highly doubt she fits the classification of one. Classification can sometimes be a tricky business because many lifeforms often exhibit characteristics of many different taxonomic groups.

There are fungus-like creatures called slime molds. They were once considered part of the fungi kingdom but the definition for what constitutes a fungi has changed somewhat and they are now classified as Protista. They exhibit some very amazing communal behaviors such as locomotion in large colonies.

#71: Slime Molds Show Surprising Degree of Intelligence | Animal Intelligence | DISCOVER Magazine

Slime Molds show that other possibilities exist besides neurons for communication.

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  #43  
Old 01-01-2011, 10:11 AM
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Fungi is the plural. Fungus is singular.
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  #44  
Old 01-01-2011, 05:32 PM
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The taxonomic kingdom is known as "fungi".
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  #45  
Old 01-01-2011, 07:33 PM
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Yes, funghi are not animals, but they belong to the same group as animalia which is seperate from plantae: Fungus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartOfGaia View Post
"To say that these networks are conscious and actually act like neurons is a bit of a stretch, as they have no electrical signal transduction..."
"Neurons work with electric potential, which is quite fast, while the others seem to work chemically, beeing rather slow."
...
What makes a 'being' concious is all of the connections neurons make in the brain. Infact, the ability of neurons to store information comes from their capacity to forge many connections between one another-like a network. Fungal cells form many miles in length with numerous connections. It is quite possible and most likely probable that fungi not only communicate, but store information through biochemical means. True, this isn't the same communication method as neurons, but that dosnt mean they don't create a sort of conciousness.
The connections that are made are indeed interesting and moreso than mass or size itself. What makes such a network a system of information storage is, if such connections are formed as a response to inputs or as a result of learning. I do not know if that can be said about mycelium.
If it would, there still is a barrier there. signal speed (transduction (?) ) is much higher in electrochemical neuronal networks than in purely chemical or physical systems like hormones, blood vessels,... - Actually plants have signal transduction, but the signals travel orders of magnitude slower than animals. Now basically if you have a organ large enough to be conscious, with enough connections its speed of thought would depend on the size and signal speed. If size is large and speed is slow, anything going on would be very slow. Pandoras Eywa is large in size but fast in signal speed, animals are small in size and fast in signal speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartOfGaia View Post
Biologically, one of the criteria for being a living thing is the ability to respond to stimuli or shifting abiotic factors in the environment. If a structure like a branch (which also becomes the mycelium's food) falls above the organism it will have some means of 'sensing' it.
The question was not, if funghi are living things - they definitely are

Quote:
It has been proven scientifically that fungi coevolved with plants and form a symbiosis which without, many plants could not live.
Same for animals of course - many plants and animals are forming symbiosis, also bacteria and animals and bacteria and plants - so many things are connected - that is what people do not get! This world here is interconnected in complex ways and civilized humans are messing with the web of life without thinking.

Quote:
It has been shown that mycelium connect multiple trees belonging to different species and that when one tree is severely lacking in nutrients, the mycelium will reroute nutrients toward that particular tree.
That is cool, is that from Stamets books?

Quote:
Stamets has also shown that mycelium can purify water by acting as a filter, they produce chemicals which can destroy biological weapons, and they produce powerful antibacterial agents.
Sure - anibiotics come from funghi. Oh and other organisms can do that purification as well, it is fascinating - so many organisms that have the ability to clean up. Examples are bacteria as well as clams.
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"Humans are storytellers. These stories then can become our reality. Only when we loose ourselves in the stories they have the power to control us. Our culture got lost in the wrong story, a story of death and defeat, of opression and control, of separation and competition. We need a new story!"
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