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Old 01-04-2011, 07:05 AM
Dyfrnt Drum n Bass
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Question Evolution of Tsahaylu

New to the forums, but not a noob on Avatar or Pandora. But just came up with a question that I'd like to hear some opinions on, or maybe from the headz that write the Avatar-Wiki.
So when the Tsahaylu was evolving, or for everyday (non-movie script) life on Pandora, when a bond is made, Why is it that its the NaVi that have control of the fauna? I mean, why dont the Ikran mentally tell the Navi -"ok, instead of hunting, you're gonna bring me to those yummy fruity things to eat" or When Jake bonded with Toruk, Toruk's like -"dam, I was gonna eat you the other day & you got away, no, your not gonna ride me. get outta here". the point is it seems like the Tsahaylu is only single directional in instructions/demands rather than a two way street. What makes the NaVi more powerful/demanding over the other animals?. Anyone get what I mean?

On another note, When Jake & Neytiri bond, Why cant she see what Jake's real orders are from Parker & Quaritch as well as what is to become of Hometree?
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:48 AM
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Well, hmm, that's a good direction to go.
I don't think it's one directional, I mean look at the way Jake and Neytiri reacted...
I think in the matter of evolution, they developed the mental angle over the animals. It's hard to describe what I'm talking about. Sure a Toruk is strong, but Jake is stronger mentally in some areas. Kind of like the way humans evolved into higher thinking beings. Certain areas of the brain are used more and get developed over other areas. With the Na'vi, that neural bond (if you look it's in the same place as the main connection in Matrix..and that is another discussion) was a higher order of thinking so it developed other areas of the brain in order to 'subdue' the other animals.
As for their bond, it's on an emotional level, not a front lobe level. It's not telepathy where you can tell what someone is thinking in words, it's a connection to their ... primal state? (I'm not going to go into human mating practices...)
Think about when they're flying an ikran, Jake still thinks in words, but for the Na'vi it's an extension of them, in the back part of their brain like you walking and seeing an object to go around, you 'think' to your body 'I need to go this direction' but you don't actually do it on a higher level.

Okay...all that just made my brain hurt. Going to bed now. Hope that made sense.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:10 AM
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Very good concern Dyfrnt, I asked myself thousands of questions about the Tsahaylu... I guess and from what I see in the movie everytime, the "material" which the Tsahaylu is made of is the same as the "optic fiber"-like branches of the Tree Of Souls and Willow Trees of Voices. Also the Ikran/ Pa'li/ Toruk etc have the same "material" for their connection. It's almost a very obvious thing, the other subject, Matrix, uses the brain for transfering people into the virtual dimension and not the leg or hand or chest

AVATAR just wanted to place this relationship of a "reason"-able race with its surroundings and living things. A thing that we lost. I think Tsahaylu (or Tsaheylu) is the most interesting thing in AVATAR.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:12 PM
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It certainly isn't one way, remember Jake bonding with the Pa'li for the first time?

I'd agree with the Na'vi being mentally more developed.sophisticated, although of course, there is still an element of chouce in it on the side of the animal, for example which ikran chooses a Na'vi or if they can become Toruk Makto.

for Jake and Neytiri, I don't think it would copy ALL memories to the other (or all sorts of other things would have happened differently, Jake and Neytiri would have become fluent in each other's language for one. I'd say it's more who they are than just memories (although memories would be part of it, they wouldn't be it all, or all memories) - their feelings, personality, way of thinking, as well as physical senses
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsawke`Iheyu View Post
I guess and from what I see in the movie everytime, the "material" which the Tsahaylu is made of is the same as the "optic fiber"-like branches of the Tree Of Souls and Willow Trees of Voices. Also the Ikran/ Pa'li/ Toruk etc have the same "material" for their connection.
Interesting, I never noticed that before.

Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
I'd say it's more who they are than just memories (although memories would be part of it, they wouldn't be it all, or all memories) - their feelings, personality, way of thinking, as well as physical senses
This is what I've always figured myself. No specific revelations about the other person, just the other's mood and such. Plus his/her physical feelings.

That said, it'd be really cool to learn more about what tsahaylu actually entails and the psychological biology (or biological psychology?) behind it. I find this sort of stuff fascinating.
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Old 01-05-2011, 04:51 AM
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I agree what has been said above and can not think about adding anymore. I do belive that they share their feelings, emoitions, thoughts, and good memories.

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Old 01-05-2011, 05:21 AM
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As far as Tsaheylu with other animals is concerned, the Navi most likely have access to the sensory inputs of the animal. When Jake learns to ride a direhorse for the first time, he feel the heartbeat and strong legs of the direhorse. This clearly implies a sense of feeling through touch. I would imagine that this would extend to other senses such as sight, hearing, taste, and smell (i.e. they can see through their own eyes and the animal's eyes at the same time). Additionally when Neytiri's Ikran and Palulukan are killed, you can tell that she can sense their pain (sense of touch).

As far as actual control goes, I think that they do not force their will but influence the thoughts of the animal. Like if you think "to fly" or to "move forward" then the animal receives the idea or impulse in its head and has a strong tendency to act based on that influence. When Jake bonded with the Ikran for the first time, Neytiri told him to think about flying. Jake did think about flying for a moment and the Ikran took off, but then Jake stopped thinking about flying and became afraid which influenced the Ikran's mind to sense fear also thus causing it to freak out. Jake didn't command the Ikran "to fall" literally but rather had a notion of falling. I also see further evidence for this system of influence when Jake is about to tame the Toruk. As they are flying high above the Toruk, the ikran looks scared and hesitant and Jake has to reassure it mentally.

I think the reason that sentient creatures are able to control other creatures is not just because they are more intelligent but because they can rationalize better (though that is often based upon intelligence). The system of influence works both ways. the Navi can impart feelings and impulses into an animal and the animal can impart its own feelings and impulses into the rider but a rational being can decide whether or not to act on those feelings or impulses. A creature that cannot rationalize on the other hand will act on those feelings or impulses like instinct (it will still have influences from its own natural instincts however like we saw with Jake's Ikran upon seeing the Toruk but the feeling can be so strong as to override them). This also explains why in Tsaheylu when two Navi connect their queues, one does not control the other. Both give each other feelings, emotions, and impulses but they can rationalize and choose whether or not to act on those impulses.

Last edited by Banefull; 01-05-2011 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:43 AM
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^ Very well said, Banefull; I agree completely. Incidentally, I suspect that ikran are more intelligent than direhorses, which is why there needs to be a bond in which the ikran is willing to submit to the will of a particular rider. Neytiri says "once tsaheylu is made, ikran will fly with only one hunter in the whole life." Which would imply that it's capable of disobeying inputs, if a different hunter tried to ride it.

I also suspect that Toruk is even more intelligent and capable of rationalizing, and this may be why becoming Toruk Makto is so rare. Simply making tsaheylu would not be enough to force your will onto an intelligent, rationalizing being (otherwise, I get amusing, nonsensical images of Neytiri forcing Jake to give her piggy-back rides against his will). You can think "level out, fly straight" and Toruk can go "...actually, I think I'd rather just eat you now, you presumptuous little sh*t." So in order for it to work, Toruk must *choose* to cooperate with you. I imagine the relationship being more equal -- more like partners than a rider and mount. For example, I can imagine Jake telling Toruk "We need to get on top of the shuttle" and Toruk getting into position and telling him "Jump when I tell you to. Ok, now."
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Selected writings:

You came back
How do you make up after you've done the unforgivable? Jake and Neytiri have a conversation in the wake of Hometree's destruction, during their first real moment alone following his return as Toruk Makto.

The Last Train Home
Fourteen years after the war, a lone spaceship appears in the sky. The former members of the Avatar program watch its approach expecting the worst, fearing for their adopted home. Then the ship lands. And suddenly, nothing makes sense anymore.

Five seconds too late
This is a different kind of Jake/Neytiri romance, the story that would've unfolded had she been delayed for just five seconds while trying to reach him following the fight with Quaritch.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:56 PM
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Exactly - it's very unlikely that no other Na'vi had the idea to jump onto Toruk's back from above, they just failed afterwards - after all, it's not like you will be able to approach one from in front without getting eaten.
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