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  #16  
Old 08-04-2015, 08:00 PM
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"Eywa" is an enormous plant-like organism with the capacity for sapience and what appears to be a vast amount of biomass connecting to other "units" of the same organism. The Tree of Souls appears to be (at minimum) a major component of the organism, while the smaller units consist of individuals such the Tree of Voices.

It is not really a deity, but it maintains a mutualistic relationship with the Na'vi, who protect it, and depending on whether or not it can manipulate trees it may also be able to increase food yield.

The fact that the Na'vi consider it to be a deity works in favor of both parties, since this kind of ideology precludes any attempts at analysis and the organism's capabilities form a positive feedback loop to reinforce/maintain the illusion of divinity.
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:02 AM
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Ok , in taking a look at theory's as to symbolism revolving around what "Eywa" might represent ,, I often get a Pandora wide interconnected "super sentient organism"
bonded in some way to all life on Pandora ,, I have reflected upon the Kogi and what they call "Aluna" (The ancient creator the great mother a part of there creation story)
in defining what "Aluna" is::

Aluna /aloohna / noun
Pure thought,, Memory,, Spirit,,
Mind ,, Soul ,, Imagination

The root Entity out of which all things are born,
in which everything is contained.

In Aluna (Eywa reflected in Avatar) there is the memory of the past
and the potential for the future.

Aluna (Eywa) forms the -""bridge""- between the universe and the Human sprit

To me this reflects upon the research upon what some in the science field call
"LUCA" or Last universal common Ancester when one hears the Kogi people speak
of "Aluna" they say this (ignore the rest of music contained in the video just focus on the roots the story at the beginning)" I am trying to use it to make a point please bare with me I am trying to present
things from there "world view" of course its different from the perspective of Avatar
"Kogi Aluna creation story example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB1DQ_C6Gig

Now take a look at research being done on "L.U.C.A" "last universal common ancestor"

Meet 'LUCA': Our 3.5 Billion Year Old Ancestor | Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsYWH3lpCOE

to me the story's do share a number of common parallels so in my feelings
"Eywa" in the Avatar story universe may be a "reflection" on some of these examples
To keep things simple I will hold at least for now , findings in Quantum physics on "entanglement" as well as string theory concepts , as they are still theory..
but I would like people to share feelings on this subject as to is Eywa in the Avatar universe "The common ancestor to all life on Pandora "
Is "Eywa" a example of a planet wide "super organism" from which all life in Pandora shares common roots
and source "memory's" so for all essentual reasons "The All Mother"

Last edited by allroock123; 08-11-2015 at 01:11 AM.
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2015, 12:40 AM
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[QUOTE=allroock123;184505Avatar universe "The common ancestor to all life on Pandora "[/QUOTE]

I think you're reading into the "all-mother" title a little too much.

The common ancestor of all life would almost certainly not exist on a world with a developed biosphere, because:

1) The organisms that descend from the common ancestor compete with the common ancestor for space and resources, and since common ancestors at any classification level tend to be more general and less specialized, the chance that they could share the same habitat indefinitely is effectively 0%.

2) The general climate and conditions of worlds change drastically from the time the first organisms form to when the planet has attained a developed biosphere (I am defining this as a world with terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems that differ regionally and feature produces and multiple tiers of consumer organisms with biodiversity similar to Earth circa 5-10 thousand years ago). When the first organisms congealed from a mixture of nucleic acids, phospholipids, and some proteins, Earth's atmosphere had a relatively low concentration of oxygen, many regions were still volcanically active, and many areas were generally toxic to today's animals and plants. The first organisms were bacteria, and then later on a different organism formed that had a more advanced cellular structure. At some point, this organism entered into a symbiotic relationship with a photosynthetic bacteria (cyanobacteria), and began producing oxygen as a waste product of photosynthesis. This would be the ancestor to all plants and algae, and they were so successful that they changed the chemistry of the atmosphere, drastically increasing the amount of oxygen so quickly that they changed the climate and killed off many other early organisms that could only live in the absence of oxygen. This change alone (there were others as well) made life impossible for many other organisms, and by this point the common ancestor to all of them may very well have been long gone.

3) The common ancestor to all life on any world would be little more than a colony of cells forming a slimy coating on a submerged rock or a thick, gooey film growing on the bottom of an ocean. Organisms at this stage have little organization outside the cellular level, and the very first organisms may not even be colonial, but rather be unicellular and float aimlessly through the ocean. The Tree of Souls is far too organized to be the common ancestor to anything on Pandora.

4) The Tree of Souls concept is actually based on the biology and morphology of hydrozoans. Hydrozoans are a class of cnidarians (jellies, corals, anemones, etc.) that feature a branching tree or plant-like growing stage that enters a reproductive stage that produces reproductive units that appear more like jellies.



This is why I often say that the Tree of Souls is not really a plant, at least not in the strictest terms. The "Seeds of the Sacred Tree" are actually living reproductive units, and not seeds (seeds are not motile). Hydrozoans cannot connect to other hydrozoans, but they are animals, and as such they possess nervous systems that conduct signals with electrical impulses.

All of those things also apply to Pandora; the Tree of Souls is called the "all-mother" as a result of culture, not because it is literally the mother to all the organisms on that world. The common ancestor to all Pandoran life would almost certainly not be around at the time of the movie, since it just wouldn't be able to survive all of the changes that had to have happened, it would have been outcompeted, and because the Tree of Souls (and all the other units of the same organism) are far and away more advanced than a "common ancestor" organism would be.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure "all-mother" is just how their culture prefers to view it (and as I said before, that's probably a good thing).
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  #19  
Old 03-04-2017, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiden View Post
4) The Tree of Souls concept is actually based on the biology and morphology of hydrozoans. Hydrozoans are a class of cnidarians (jellies, corals, anemones, etc.) that feature a branching tree or plant-like growing stage that enters a reproductive stage that produces reproductive units that appear more like jellies.



This is why I often say that the Tree of Souls is not really a plant, at least not in the strictest terms. The "Seeds of the Sacred Tree" are actually living reproductive units, and not seeds (seeds are not motile). Hydrozoans cannot connect to other hydrozoans, but they are animals, and as such they possess nervous systems that conduct signals with electrical impulses.
Is it all right if I added this (crediting you) to the OP? This is seriously one of the most interesting things I've read in a while.
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  #20  
Old 03-13-2017, 03:37 AM
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i much prefer the idea of Eywa to anything that humanity worships.
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Old 03-13-2017, 04:25 AM
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Eywa is extremely similar to some deities or concepts worshiped throughout history and to this date
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:28 PM
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In reflection,, most the north American native peoples (with some exceptions) in there internal ethos sees this as spiritual,, its referred to as the "great mystery" or the Creation Force,, recognizing aspects of both female and male,,its "internal" not external ,, "We give humble thanks in recognition of these forces.
this Changes in South American and Polynesian world view into Female and Male Gods and these are worshiped and offered tribute to .. Avatar touches on "both" because it contains source reflections from all these living cultures ,,, To understand the roots of there persptives I would encourage people to "listen" and reflect upon to these peoples Creation story's ,, This Why I have brought up examples from the "Kogi" and what they Call "Aluna" the recent Disney film "Moana " also digs deep into Polynesian Creation myth and takes a very interesting angle in refection to issues today as one of its lead charters is called upon by the ocean to ,, "put back the heart"
one can see this example in the films story "but" its how the films storytellers came upon writing it this way that holds a deeper interest to me in asking the question , where was this story angle sourced from ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Lm1-W0jow

layer it with these findings touching on,, LUCA or Last Universal Common Ancestor theory


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77sWGJkZZ1s

And I will also reference ,, a clip that includes a vocal telling of the Kogi Creation story touching what is Aluna
my focus is on the story only not the music after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB1DQ_C6Gig&t=61s

And the Creation Story of the Haudenosaunee in what is now North America

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzDM7Jmg94

Last edited by allroock123; 03-14-2017 at 07:09 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-22-2017, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
....Continued.




4) Like the Tree of Souls, these seeds could also possess a smaller, yet still advanced mindset. They could've landed on Jake because they knew he was a human in an avatar body, probably by the difference in DNA, physical features, and mind. Of course this begs the question: why didn't they land on the other avatars?

Then I thought of a new reason. My new theory is that the woodsprites land on or surround any newborn native. I assume that everytime a Na'vi baby is born, a woodsprite or two come along and "bless" the birth. When new life sprouts, woodsprites (which probably have a conscious nature) translate this as a "borrowing of energy" from the source tree (the Tree of Souls) and analyze the specimen brought anew to Pandora.

Jake also experienced another "birth" when his mind was being transferred to his avatar. Thus explains the woodsprites surrounding Jake in the ending scene.

This "meeting" theory is extremely sketchy and makes a ton of assumptions, but as far as what information we're given about what woodsprites actually are, this theory is, as of now, a working theory.

5)
I really do not share this opinion at all...
Ok some simple deductive reasoning. Woodsprite lands on Neytiri's arrow tip. Why? Just by coincidence? Perhaps.. but then Woodsprites land on Jake, stay there for a while then dissapear at the same time. That entails a driving force, a consiousness as you will. Why did they do that at those particular times? Both times important decisions (**** ups as you will) were being made. In the first example Neytiri was on the verge of killing Jake, and on the second scene Neytiri was on the verge of sending Jake back. In both those cases the woodsprites decided to intervene. Lets assume that the woodsprites are being sent by Ewa as Neytiri explains. It means that Ewa is actually able to see what is going on in the 'real world' so to speak. Ewa saw that Neytiri was lining up the arrow and wanted to shoot, and they also picked up her reaction by refusing Jake to come along to the camp. Ewa's wish was loud and clear, no do not kill this specimen, and yes take him to camp.

Why save you? Neytiri can't really explain it, except strong heart, no fear. Perhaps that is the reason, perhaps not. But lets assume that Ewa is the all seeing and observing eye. It must have seen Jake standing his ground against te rhino and shortly after the panther. Two important **** tests that Ewa gave him. In a way it could be seen as a literal rite of passage. Perhaps Ewa saw he was a blank canvas.. perhaps Ewa send the rhino and the panther purposely to see what he was made of, or else be done with it quickly.

Hardly a coincidence for Jake to survive 4 of the deadliest animals (Rhino, Panther, Dogs and Neytiri) in one day. Later on even Toruk chooses him. Perhaps Ewa was testing Jake all the time for proper Alpha qualities. Perhaps Ewa saw that upcoming challenges were best to be dealt with by an outsider like Jake.

Last edited by ErosThanatos; 04-22-2017 at 10:36 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #24  
Old 04-29-2017, 02:23 AM
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Scientists Reveal LUCA Theory - Common Ancestor Of All Living Things On Earth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyRWdDYCTo

in reflection The Kogi native peoples of Columbia (Have spoken on them before) hold in there creation story a
Belief in a entity they call "Aluna" certainly not a science perception but a spiritual one of course other native peoples
have diffrent names for this ,, if they hold a religious perception of reality this thing is seen as a Goddess
if they hold a spiritual perception of reality ,, its some kind of "Root Creation force"
while a very unscientific perception it does hold at least some interest ,, when you look into there definition

Aluna: Pure Thought , Memory, Spirit, Mind, Soul, Imagination

The entity (Kogi cultural identity and perception) out of which all things are born, in which everything is contained.

In Aluna there is the memory of the past and the potential for the future.

Aluna forms the "Bridge" between the universe and the human spirit..

Eywa sort of takes this role in Avatar's story but to speak deeper on this one would have to look across
hundreds of cultures here on earth , is there a common bond here under the surface?
many speak of reflective "feelings" upon very underlying "real" world issues seen under the surface and very personally unique emotive root experience after seeing Avatar,, does one think there is the a common "seed" that our consciousness
relates to,, held present in Avatar's symbology ? the symbolic seeds of the sacred tree touch on more then there simple physical form in the film , people have likened the film to "dreaming" with ones eyes wide open , the place of understanding we see the film from and reflect on its meaning from is quite unique and not common in our analytical common place of thought expression..

Thoughts on this.

Last edited by allroock123; 04-29-2017 at 03:20 AM.
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  #25  
Old 05-07-2017, 09:07 AM
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the tree of souls being a hydrozoa-like organism actually makes a lot of sense now that i think about it.

but with how everything on the planet is literally connected, maybe the eywa organism (or at least the "plant" parts) is a little fungus-esque? i mean there are totally real life fungal colonies whose size can be measured in square MILES.
like, maybe the tree of souls and the tree of voices are just the fruiting bodies of a massive planet-wide fungal colony.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:21 AM
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My apologies for the long and possibly not very well thought-out post. I've done my best, but I'm not in the practice of being rational so there may be holes. Regardless, I think it's good enough to post, so here we go.
Again, sorry for the long post that requires a second one to finish it off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Certain elements and events in the film can be cited to disprove my theory. These include:

1) Dr. Grace Augustine claims that she "sees her", referring to "Eywa", when at the brink of death.
I feel that this is actually evidence for your theory. You seem to be seeing it as Grace acknowledging Eywa as a goddess entity. However, Grace is very scientific, and while being scientific and being religious aren't mutually exclusive, being scientific does help to train your mind to remain rational and skeptical about things in the here and now. She's also never really seemed to hold much stock in religion (then again, she doesn't speak of it as far as I recall, but I hold that point because she doesn't seem the type to take it on blind faith), just spirituality re: the Na'vi people, and those are quite separate things.

Additionally, Grace has been studying the trees for a very long time with enthusiasm; but after hearing the Na'vi speak about Eywa, as a scientist, it's more likely that she would have filed away their beliefs as a folklore, mythos, creation story, or as she should, as a belief system rather than actually jumping to the conclusion after hearing Eywa's name that Eywa is a god-entity. I also believe that Grace's time studying the trees would be important enough to her that as she connected the dots between the Na'vi being able to 'access and upload and download data' to and from this global network and their talk of Eywa, she would most likely have accepted Eywa as the Na'vi's name for this incredible phenomenon.

Grace is the one that tells us about how many neural connections the trees have. Grace is the person that's been studying these things with strict procedures and training for years. She says that Eywa is all around them. So are the trees and other flora! I wonder what seems to imply to people that she's speaking about a goddess when she says that Eywa is real and with her, aside from personal bias?

Main Concept - Let's Define "Real"

Cutting out the assumptions being made (as with Occam's Razor) regarding the explanation given, the simplest way to explain her reasons for saying it would be to simply substitute a sentence. I think that most of the problem comes from not knowing what 'real' means here. In order to explain why I think that 'tangible' is a better word than 'real', please refer to 'God-Entities being real vs People being real, below this point.

Let's try to think about "Eywa is a tangible being" instead of "Eywa is real". The substitution changes the meaning very little (as both tangible and non tangible things are considered 'real') but gives us a lot more insight and helps support this theory. Eywa is the immediately recognizable word that Jake, the audience, and Grace herself knows to represent what she's linking up with and fully experiencing for the first time. (As a reminder, Grace has never actually experienced the link with Eywa before, as she's never been allowed close to a link site.) If Eywa, the intelligence the word refers to, the entire concept she has of the trees, didn't exist, she would probably say "damn, I wasted way too many years of study on this!" Think about it; Grace has invested at least a decade of work into figuring out how the neural network between the trees works. If it wasn't really there, I don't think she'd be so happy about the discovery. If it was a case of Eywa being an actual god-entity, I think Grace's reaction would then be (as mine would) something along the lines of "Well, I didn't see that coming", considering that her entire concept of this place has been scientific in nature.

God-Entities being real vs People being real

The way I, and, from conversation with a lot of people on the subject, a number of other people view god-entities isn't as 'real' and immediate the way a tangible entity is. For instance, most people say that "My cat is real" or "My daughter is real" and "My god(s) is/are watching over me". Sure, a fair number of people will argue that their god(s) is/are real, but when we aren't talking about the reality of them, most people seem to feel that god entities are a step removed from 'real life', even if only a little-- which is perfectly fine! Also, in case this gives the wrong impression, I mean a step removed as in that most people wouldn't qualify their interactions with their god-entities to be of a tangible nature. Most people would think instead that god-entities are more of a mysterious force that manipulates their fates, and watches over them and affords protection. If that is the definition of a god-entity, which it isn't, then to the Na'vi, who are not as scientifically advanced, then Eywa would definitely fit the bill for them. Especially if they aren't aware of her as more than a gathering of intelligence or a mysterious force. Anyway, the idea of a god-entity being a step removed from 'real', tangible, everyday life doesn't disprove or undermine a person's faith in any way; in fact I think that being able to say that a god-entity doesn't have a part in absolutely everything you experience would be a sign of a stronger faith. But the important point here is that, from what I've experienced, and though I know that I'm in no way an expert on this, it seems as though god entities don't feel as 'real' to people as tangible beings do. God-entities are beings that you pray to for spiritual guidance, as a rule. Humans, animals, and plants aren't.

Learned tradition of Personification
(Personifying the intelligence as Eywa and calling it a 'her')

Eywa is personified as a female being, for multiple reasons. Like... a car. Or a plant. Many people name and gender non-gendered (or insignificantly/not obviously/non-binary gendered, for the average person, such as plants or insects) in whatever way they are naturally inclined to for the sake of building an emotional attachment, for the sake of being able to relate to them, as well as for other reasons. "This is my car, she's a real beauty." "Look at Tom, he's such a good Tomato Plant." "My stove is driving me nuts! (Insert pronoun) keeps blowing the fuses." If this isn't enough evidence for a person that doesn't do these things, think of the natural human tendency to assign a gender to people and animals even if the gender isn't immediately obvious. Generally speaking, if it's unknown, most people will pick a pronoun and roll with it.

At such a sacred site for the Na'vi, Grace would no more try to counteract whatever cultural reverence the Na'vi have built up around Eywa / the personification of Eywa than she would physically attack the Tree. She is an observer, and, as at least a makeshift anthropologist given her ability to publish a book without any issues from actual anthropologists (after all it's a widely regarded book), wouldn't want to disrupt their customs or their traditions or values while observing them. So while describing Eywa, not only does she adhere to tradition, she also respects the Na'vi culture, even in her last breaths. It's simply who she is.

Conclusion
(Let's take the god-entity assumption out of the conversation)

As can be seen from my slightly rushed response, simple clarification of the meaning of the words Grace used makes it much easier to explain Grace's sentiments during her last moments in compliance with your theory. "Eywa is real." Grace's studies have been proven. There is in fact an incredible, scientifically valid connection between all things on Pandora. There's nothing in those words that imply or explicitly state that Grace believes Eywa to be a god-entity. All that I see and hear is a woman that's been studying something she's been amazed by and grown to love over the years, who has finally gotten enough evidence to prove to herself once and for all that it's absolutely, bone-chillingly true, dispelling her inborn doubts, enthusing over the awesome force that she's finally gotten to validate with her own senses.

After all, I think if I was in her ivy shoes and actually linking my mind to a giant intelligent plant-based life form for the first time, especially one that nobody 'civilized' believes is more than a weed in someone's garden, especially when it has infinite (in terms of human comprehension) memories and persons stored in it, I wouldn't be able to say much more than "Holy crap it's real" either, if I could even manage get that much out!

In terms of furthering your theory and for any new ones you come up with over the years, as it seemed like you started with the assumption that it is a god-entity and tried to build a case against it. My advice is to start from saying, 'Okay, Eywa isn't a god-entity,' or whatever your topic is, and work your way back from there. 'Eywa is not a god entity, and these character traits support that in Grace's personality'. If you can't find a valid and simple way to explain it then you've hit a bump, and may not actually be correct; but of course it may just be that you don't have all the pieces. If we assume that Eywa isn't a god-entity, then it's fairly easy to say that Grace is referring to the evidence she put together (being a scientist) in confirming her thesis, and relying on learned habits (personification and anthropology habits of not changing the local customs) as well as showing respect for the Na'vi when she says this.

Last edited by Aze; 05-12-2017 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:21 AM
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Finally, as one last point in the list:

Jake is not a scientist. Sure, he isn't dumb, but he sure as hell wouldn't understand it if Grace broke out in a rant about how the synapse and neuron equivalent connections between the trees actually housed an intelligence at least on the level of humans and that she was experiencing a link with it that very second. Nor did she have enough energy or time to do so. This was likely the best way to condense all of that information down for him, in both a simple enough sentence for him (and the audience) to digest, as well as the best way to get her meaning across to him (though we don't know if she succeeded).

Granted, that could be used against this argument (If Jake didn't notice the intelligence in the link when he accessed the Tree of Voices with Neytiri, etc etc), but I would rebut that the site Jake and Neytiri were at was probably more of a storage site while the tree of Souls is more of a direct terminal site. You could probably make the same connections at either if you tried, but I suspect a default setting. After all, every computer has hard-drives and memory banks, just as every human has storage for memories as well as computing power. Why shouldn't a super-plant being have them too?
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