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Old 09-04-2010, 05:54 AM
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Default Understanding Some of the RDA's Motives (SE Scene)

******SE Spoilers******







I know everyone's gotta be reading this and thinking, "What the hell?!"

I've been thinking lately about the scene where Wainfleet's trudging through the destruction path left by the Na'vi after they attacked the mining crew. The death is pretty bad; pretty gruesome and merciless. Obviously, the RDA knew what was coming... or did they?

I'm assuming, from the tone given off by Selfridge, Quaritch, and Wainfleet, that such an attack hadn't ever happened before. Sure, there were conflicts happening all the time between the RDA and the Na'vi, but it seemed like everyone acted like something like this was the turning point. It seemed unprovoked. The miners had no idea the Na'vi regarded the area they destroyed as a sacred one; obviously, from the reaction given by Selfridge.

With this added scene, everything came together for me. This is why the RDA attacked Hometree at that particular time: because of the "unprovoked" mass attack from the Na'vi. In the original cut, such an attack on Hometree seemed heartless, and without much cause except to "take care of business", and rightly so. But now, it seems like the RDA had a just cause to commense the attack. Obviously, the Na'vi expected retaliation from the RDA, which is why Eytukan was speaking out to the clan.

From the damage done by the Na'vi, this extra scene also explains why the Na'vi thought they could win another skirmish. It wasn't just "mindless bravery" like the original version depicted. They really thought they could win from basing themselves off what destruction they had laid on the entire mining crew previously.

But I do understand now, why the RDA picked that time to attack Hometree without any further attempts to negotiate. Any thoughts on this? Agreements; disagreements?
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:56 AM
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RDA didn't choose to attack, Quaritch convinced Selfridge there would be 'minimal casualties'. Selfridge looked like he was kind of on the fence about it.
Yeah the Na'vi trashed a couple of dozers but I think Selfridge had a small tickle of conscience about them gunning down the school. Hence Grace reminding him that there were children in the Hometree and he didn't want that blood on his hands. The children in the school were not his fault, that was all Quaritch and his goons.
I can see your point, and it does make sense, but Selfridge's first loyalty is to RDA and his sizable salary from what they mine, Quaritch is just out for gunning down the entire native population so they can take over the planet.

I'm still wondering if Selfridge's look as he heads for the shuttle when he sees Jake is a surly 'you've ruined my whole life' or a possible 'I didn't think it would go this far.'
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:41 AM
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True, you're probably right about Selfridge's feelings about attacking Hometree, even at that point. But it seems more natural for Selfridge to agree with Quaritch to destroy Hometree at that time because of this event.

Without the event, the question begs to be asked: why would he agree to attack Hometree if nothing serious had happened (besides Jake ruining one of the dozer cameras)? It seems like Selfridge is more passive about it.

With the event, it explains why he'd be so hesitant before finally agreeing, since the event is just cause (more or less) to commense the attack at that time: the time when Quaritch wished to proceed.
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrice Maire View Post
I'm still wondering if Selfridge's look as he heads for the shuttle when he sees Jake is a surly 'you've ruined my whole life' or a possible 'I didn't think it would go this far.'
I'd say he looks remorseful for what he allowed to take place.

As for the RDA attacking Hometree when they did, I can see why. But at the same time I can also see why the Na'vi attacked the mining crew and equipment. And guess what? I'm going to side with the Na'vi for defending themselves against the RDA's encroachment.
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:00 PM
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I think you need to read the script... Sylwanin and some others did it before.

How do you know what the miners think?
Selfridge clearly did.

Quote:
and without much cause except to "take care of business", and rightly so.
I have nothing to say to that except...
WTF?

So are you sad the RDA got kicked off Pandora if you think destroying Hometree was right?

ayskxawng...
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
How do you know what the miners think?
Selfridge clearly did.
How do you know?


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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
I have nothing to say to that except...
WTF?

So are you sad the RDA got kicked off Pandora if you think destroying Hometree was right?

ayskxawng...
Don't get ahead of yourself; you're starting to act like Aihwa with the out-of-context strawman. Look again at what I said (emphasis added):

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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
In the original cut, such an attack on Hometree seemed heartless, and without much cause except to "take care of business", and rightly so.
So, as far as being ayskxawng goes...
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:23 PM
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I still don't understand what you mean there... sorry for any misunderstanding in that case.

As for Selfridge, he clearly knew... remember that scene in the control room where he goes on about how he doesn't care?
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:01 PM
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As for Selfridge, he clearly knew... remember that scene in the control room where he goes on about how he doesn't care?
Well, it sounded like he didn't care about all the science going on about the moon, but did care whether or not anyone was hurt in the end. It didn't sound like he understood all the specifics surrounding everything that the Na'vi regarded as "sacred", i.e., "You throw a stick in the air around here and it'll land on some sacred... fern for Christ sake!" And I can kind of see his point, too. Without an understanding of the indigenous, it's natural to assume Selfridge never really cared to learn about it, since that wasn't his job. He was just overseeing the mining; that was it.

So... if he knew about the nature of the indigenous' regard for the area... that's strange. He couldn't have possibly known precisely because he didn't care. He had to have Grace tell him. And when he didn't believe her... that's also understandable, considering how most of everything she told him sounded amazingly impossible.
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:41 PM
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The Na'vi attack on the bulldozers in the SE DOES greatly change the feel of the movie. In the original the Na'vi are portrayed as peaceful, innocent victims of human aggression. Add in the bulldozer attack and suddenly they aren't so peaceful at all. Of course our impression as fans (having seen the original version many times) is already set and the SE is not likely to change that. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone who had only seen the SE.

OTOH, I don't believe that the bulldozer attack is the sole motivation for the RDA attack on Hometree. When Selfridge is explaining the situation to Jake early in the movie, he makes it quite clear that if Jake can't convince the Omaticaya to leave Hometree peacefully then force will be used "It will have to be all stick". So, I believe that the attack on Hometree would have happened sooner or later even without the attack on the bulldozers. In fact, one has to be suspicious that the RDA didn't deliberately invite an attack on the bulldozers (why only a single AMP suit and six men as guards?) in order to give them the excuse to launch their attack.
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
I'm assuming, from the tone given off by Selfridge, Quaritch, and Wainfleet, that such an attack hadn't ever happened before.
Incorrect. Read the script.

Quote:
Sure, there were conflicts happening all the time between the RDA and the Na'vi, but it seemed like everyone acted like something like this was the turning point. It seemed unprovoked. The miners had no idea the Na'vi regarded the area they destroyed as a sacred one; obviously, from the reaction given by Selfridge.
Seems obvious enough to me... Again, read the script.

Quote:
With this added scene, everything came together for me. This is why the RDA attacked Hometree at that particular time: because of the "unprovoked" mass attack from the Na'vi.
So did the Na'vi attack Hell's Gate then? Becasue that would be the equivalent (actually, still not equivalent because there are no children there and even the RDA staff who weren't marines were still not innocent.

Quote:
In the original cut, such an attack on Hometree seemed heartless, and without much cause except to "take care of business", and rightly so. But now, it seems like the RDA had a just cause to commense the attack. Obviously, the Na'vi expected retaliation from the RDA, which is why Eytukan was speaking out to the clan.
Yes, perhaps... But not an actual attack on the people hwo did nothing... He expected that perhaps some Na'vi making the attack might get killed (from the video, it looks like none did), but a deliberate attack on civilians like that IS a war crime. I know you're an RDA fan (understandable I suppose with your views), but things like that can never be justified.

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Originally Posted by ScottWashburn View Post
The Na'vi attack on the bulldozers in the SE DOES greatly change the feel of the movie. In the original the Na'vi are portrayed as peaceful, innocent victims of human aggression. Add in the bulldozer attack and suddenly they aren't so peaceful at all. Of course our impression as fans (having seen the original version many times) is already set and the SE is not likely to change that. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone who had only seen the SE.
Even with the context of both versions, I still don't see the Na'vi as evil just for counterattacking to defend their home.

Quote:
OTOH, I don't believe that the bulldozer attack is the sole motivation for the RDA attack on Hometree. When Selfridge is explaining the situation to Jake early in the movie, he makes it quite clear that if Jake can't convince the Omaticaya to leave Hometree peacefully then force will be used "It will have to be all stick". So, I believe that the attack on Hometree would have happened sooner or later even without the attack on the bulldozers. In fact, one has to be suspicious that the RDA didn't deliberately invite an attack on the bulldozers (why only a single AMP suit and six men as guards?) in order to give them the excuse to launch their attack.
I thought he said that 6 bodies was all they could find.
Either way, I doubt Selfridge had any idea of what he would actually do it Jake failed - again, read the script. Even just look at the scene where Quaritch tell him to do it.

What's with the sudden RDA apologism?
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:04 PM
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I think what kicked off the attack on Hometree was when Quaritch viewed Jakes video log.

Jake was sent out to try and get the Na'vi to try and leave. And when Quaritch see's that Jake says "They aren't going to leave Hometree. We have nothing they want." I think that's what sets things in motion.

Sorry for sounding like a jerk here but the RDA was going to knock down Hometree with our without the Na'vi being in it. Sending Jake in was trying to get the Na'vi out. Remember, there was a huge Unobtanium deposit below it and that's what they were after.
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:58 PM
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Human No More:

I never suggested that the Omaticaya were in any way not justified in attacking the bulldozers, I'm just saying it changes the whole feel of the thing. In the SE the attack on Hometree is just the next logical step in an escalating conflict. In the original version it comes across as unprovoked aggression.

As for using the script as a reference source, I prefer not to. If it doesn't appear in the film, then it's not canon. I feel the same way about the "Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide" book.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottWashburn View Post
Human No More:

I never suggested that the Omaticaya were in any way not justified in attacking the bulldozers, I'm just saying it changes the whole feel of the thing. In the SE the attack on Hometree is just the next logical step in an escalating conflict. In the original version it comes across as unprovoked aggression.

As for using the script as a reference source, I prefer not to. If it doesn't appear in the film, then it's not canon. I feel the same way about the "Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide" book.
Same, thats why I never read the script. It's what might have happened, rather than what did happen.
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:27 PM
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Incorrect. Read the script.

...

Seems obvious enough to me... Again, read the script.
Why? I agree with Scott and X. Certain parts of a script is meaningless if it isn't in the film. Those parts are as meaningless as the '94 scriptment is. They're as meaningless as saying that Neytiri is 18 years old, when she clearly doesn't look 18, just like Jake doesn't look like he's in his 20s... as indicated by the script.


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So did the Na'vi attack Hell's Gate then? Becasue that would be the equivalent (actually, still not equivalent because there are no children there and even the RDA staff who weren't marines were still not innocent.
...Why are we talking about attacking Hell's Gate? They attacked the miner team because that's who destroyed the trees of voices. Hell's Gate, as far as they knew, was not involved.

...And claiming that the RDA miners are "not innocent" just because they aren't children isn't the wisest thing. I could just as easily say most of the people in the World Trade Center weren't innocent either, just because most weren't children.

The RDA miners were doing their jobs as directed by the administration; they didn't have any personal vendetta against the Na'vi, or any desire to kill. Where'd you get that idea?

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Yes, perhaps... But not an actual attack on the people hwo did nothing... He expected that perhaps some Na'vi making the attack might get killed (from the video, it looks like none did), but a deliberate attack on civilians like that IS a war crime. I know you're an RDA fan (understandable I suppose with your views), but things like that can never be justified.




Ok, first off, why are you being so hostile? And when did I ever say I was an "RDA fan"? If you ask me, you're not being much of a fair guy in this, and you're blowing things way out of proportion. You know I'm no fan of the RDA. I simply take more time (than anyone here, as a matter of fact) to point out why the RDA might've done what they did, who was guilty and who wasn't, and trying to understand. You know how hard I'm trying to make an effort not to say certain things to you when you lash out like this (which is... quite often)? How hard are you trying?

Anyway, to the subject. An attack on the mining team was nevertheless a brutal one, and an unprovoked one. How many Na'vi died when the trees of voices were destroyed? None.

The mining team was innocent of this, considering they were simply following orders without knowing any better (and how would they?). They're just the grunts that make up the workforce. They're just doing their job. They don't know why the Na'vi are attacking, except to think they're just being savage. They are thus innocents. And the attack by the Na'vi on them was just as much a crime as the attack on Hometree. Not to say their attack on the mining team wasn't unjustified (obviously, we can see their reasons, and we sypathize). But if you look on the other side of the coin, you see a different face. And we can't simply ignore it, either, can we? We can't simply say, "They're evil, so it's ok." Because that's just not true.


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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Even with the context of both versions, I still don't see the Na'vi as evil just for counterattacking to defend their home.
But... they weren't defending their home... ? They instigated the attack. They made the first move, not the RDA. Even if the RDA did destroy a sacred area, they didn't kill any Na'vi. Most importantly, they didn't kill any Na'vi on purpose.

Not to say they're evil (absolutely not). But the attack truly was something that was uncalled for in the RDA's perspective.


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What's with the sudden RDA apologism?
What's with the notion that the RDA are equivalent to the Nazis? No one's saying the RDA wasn't bad. They were. They did the wrong thing. But they weren't indubitably evil, either. We're just trying to put critical thinking on this issue. We're trying to be logical about this, and not just bowing down to the sacred cow that says, "All things non-Na'vi are evil. All things non-Pandora-related are of the devil."

Come on.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:30 PM
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/me won't ever argue with Woodsprite...
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