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Old 01-12-2011, 04:37 AM
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Default Dreamwalkers: Are they ugly by Navi Standards?

This is something I have been pondering for quite some time. Avatars closely resemble Navi; however, many human features remain. Is a dreamwalker ugly by Navi standards?

In the extended community meal deleted scene, Mo'at talks about how Jake's eyes are too narrow. To put this into perspective, imagine a human with eyes as round and as a large as the Navi walking among us.

In the deleted dancing scene, I believe Tsu'tey says "I thought.. enough drink.. you would not be so ugly"

The slight subtle differences abound. On a related note, among humans there is a phenomenon called the uncanny valley where a certain human-like figure becomes so realistic that it appears to be an unhealthy person and evokes discomfort in human observers. It is a possibility that an Avatar may fall within this valley for Navi standards.

So what does everyone else think?

Last edited by Banefull; 01-12-2011 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 01-12-2011, 06:17 AM
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I don't think its a problem with the Avatars, perhaps the human forms themselves. Though if the Na'vi have their own "uncanny valley" it would be interesting to see how things add up.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:21 AM
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*Jake is taken to hometree*

Jake: "Pleased to meet you Eytukan" *extends arm for handshake* *Na'vi gasp and gawk at Jake, secretly thinking how weird, to have five fingers.*


Put into perspective, just imagine shaking someone's hand that has six fingers on it...that would be weird. But regarding that uncanny valley stuff, I definitely think that it plays a role. There are definitely minute differences between Avatar and Na;vi that we would overlook, but would stick out to the Na'vi.

But as for ugly...I don't think the Na'vi see them as ugly per se. Neytiri was still able to fall in love with Jake. Grace was able to establish excellent ties before she was exiled for a short time (students even called her mother). And I don't want to think of more examples because I'm tired. I mean, both those examples were rooted more in emotion than anything, but still;I'd act edgy round someone with extra fingers, toes, and really narrow eyes for a bit of time after seeing them.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:06 AM
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Initially, I think the differences would stand out and strike a na'vi observer as distractingly strange. But I think that once they become more familiar with an individual dreamwalker (such as jake), the differences would seem less glaring, and at that point the uniqueness of their features would come across as exotic and perhaps even attractive.

Among humans, there is a phenomenon in which we tend to find "exotic" traits sexy, because hypothetical offspring from sex with an "exotic" person would benefit from hybrid robustness. A lot of people find the na'vi exotic and attractive, and there's no reason the phenomenon couldn't also work in the opposite direction. We wouldn't think of the avatars' pronounced eyebrows as "exotic," for example, because we're looking at them with human eyes. But I can easily imagine neytiri thinking jake's face is more expressive and striking because of them. Or thinking his accent is cute. Or enjoying the way his five fingers make his hands broader, enveloping hers in a way nobody else's can.
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You came back
How do you make up after you've done the unforgivable? Jake and Neytiri have a conversation in the wake of Hometree's destruction, during their first real moment alone following his return as Toruk Makto.

The Last Train Home
Fourteen years after the war, a lone spaceship appears in the sky. The former members of the Avatar program watch its approach – expecting the worst, fearing for their adopted home. Then the ship lands. And suddenly, nothing makes sense anymore.

Five seconds too late
This is a different kind of Jake/Neytiri romance, the story that would've unfolded had she been delayed for just five seconds while trying to reach him following the fight with Quaritch.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banefull View Post
This is something I have been pondering for quite some time. Avatars closely resemble Navi; however, many human features remain. Is a dreamwalker ugly by Navi standards?

In the extended community meal deleted scene, Mo'at talks about how Jake's eyes are too narrow. To put this into perspective, imagine a human with eyes as round and as a large as the Navi walking among us.

In the deleted dancing scene, I believe Tsu'tey says "I thought.. enough drink.. you would not be so ugly"

The slight subtle differences abound. On a related note, among humans there is a phenomenon called the uncanny valley where a certain human-like figure becomes so realistic that it appears to be an unhealthy person and evokes discomfort in human observers. It is a possibility that an Avatar may fall within this valley for Navi standards.

So what does everyone else think?
I always thought the Avatars were ugly to the Na'vi - as Mo'at says of Jake, 'his eyes are too small'. And then you have Tsu'Tey's comment...

And you know, actually, I like it. Of course the Na'vi would have different standards, and the Avatars are constantly just slightly OFF - extra digits, queue in the wrong place, they move a lot differently, eyebrows, face narrower, noses broader, eyes smaller (although, in that standard, to the Na'vi, Norm would be more attractive than Jake, as his eyes are larger and he has a narrower face).

I also like it that Neytiri still falls for Jake anyway, despite those not-pretty/jarring differences. It speaks a lot for her as a person, that she's not the kind to be taken in by a pretty face.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:50 AM
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The "eyes too small" thing is amusing to me because I have a personal reference. I grew up in a school district with very little racial diversity and was teased as a child for - among other things - having eyes that are too small. But when I went to latin america last year for a project, I had local men telling me that my eyes were pretty and that they wanted to marry a chinese girl. My eyes haven't gotten any bigger or less asian in the meantime, so it just shows how perceptions of attractiveness are skewed by underlying attitudes that have nothing to do with the actual physical features.

Also, mo'at's comment came in response to tsu'tey saying "these aliens try to look like people, but they can't." In that context, she's saying his eyes are too small to be na'vi, not necessarily that he's ugly. Tsu'tey DOES call jake ugly, but this is a common thing for guys to say when they're joking with each other, and anyway, tsu'tey is hardly a reliable judge of jake's attractiveness. :p
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You came back
How do you make up after you've done the unforgivable? Jake and Neytiri have a conversation in the wake of Hometree's destruction, during their first real moment alone following his return as Toruk Makto.

The Last Train Home
Fourteen years after the war, a lone spaceship appears in the sky. The former members of the Avatar program watch its approach – expecting the worst, fearing for their adopted home. Then the ship lands. And suddenly, nothing makes sense anymore.

Five seconds too late
This is a different kind of Jake/Neytiri romance, the story that would've unfolded had she been delayed for just five seconds while trying to reach him following the fight with Quaritch.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sothis View Post
Also, mo'at's comment came in response to tsu'tey saying "these aliens try to look like people, but they can't." In that context, she's saying his eyes are too small to be na'vi, not necessarily that he's ugly. Tsu'tey DOES call jake ugly, but this is a common thing for guys to say when they're joking with each other, and anyway, tsu'tey is hardly a reliable judge of jake's attractiveness. :p
Oh, I know Tsu'Tey is hardly reliable (but hey! He could be bi and thus actually have a standard for guys, you never know), but I still like the idea that the Avatars aren't considered 'good-looking'. For various reasons, which I'm sadly too post-work to string together, woe.
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Old 01-12-2011, 12:28 PM
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Hmm. Well, the avatars have a more robust body stucture (an avatar against any Na'vi native would probably win in a fist fight if both were trained), 10 fingers and 10 toes, less bioluminescent spots overall, and smaller eyes (like Mo'at mentioned). People suppose different things about different people. I, for example, find certain ethnicities to look less attractive. It's like a European man laying eyes on an Asian for the first time; it's a bit shocking at first.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sothis View Post
Tsu'tey DOES call jake ugly, but this is a common thing for guys to say when they're joking with each other, and anyway, tsu'tey is hardly a reliable judge of jake's attractiveness. :p

He most likely is joking but is somewhat serious at the same time.

When Jake is first taken to hometree, you can see all of the other Navi staring at him. Also when Jake sits down to eat afterwards, you can clearly see the strange look on the face of the person sitting next to him.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsprite View Post
Hmm. Well, the avatars have a more robust body stucture (an avatar against any Na'vi native would probably win in a fist fight if both were trained), 10 fingers and 10 toes, less bioluminescent spots overall, and smaller eyes (like Mo'at mentioned). People suppose different things about different people. I, for example, find certain ethnicities to look less attractive. It's like a European man laying eyes on an Asian for the first time; it's a bit shocking at first.
I'm not so sure about Avatars being stronger. Notice that the Na'vi kids in the Iknimaya didn't pant like Jake did? I don't think bulkier muscles necessarily mean stronger body.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:37 AM
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the phrase goes.
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:18 AM
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Honestly, think about seeing a 6 fingered human with other odd subtle differences. I think over time people would get used to it, but initially might be taken back by it.

The Na'vi have the ability to look past such things though. They look for the "beauty within" which is what really matters I guess. So to answer the question: Yes, I think they would initially be ugly, but would be accepted over time, and honestly it wouldn't matter to most Na'vi.
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:53 AM
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I agree with Woodsprite's comment above. I solely believe it's based on their group ethnic opinion or standards for a Na'vi man. It's exactly like an Asian and a Caucasian; they may oppose to each other's appearances. Your parents probably want you to get a mate that has the same ethnic features/same race rather then a mate that's NOT from the same group as your family. But then again, like how Neytiri ended up with Jake, a different ethnicity can also end up with another.

Last edited by bigtris; 01-18-2011 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC130StandingBy View Post
I'm not so sure about Avatars being stronger. Notice that the Na'vi kids in the Iknimaya didn't pant like Jake did? I don't think bulkier muscles necessarily mean stronger body.
Well, on that - the kids have been swinging around branches for their entire lives. Jake's Avatar has been doing that for...maybe two months? He hasn't had the time to build up the endurance yet.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:17 AM
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maybe not ugly, just different, do you think 4 fingers in ugly? I mean what are the differences? Eye brows, a longer queue, 5 fingers...
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