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Old 02-20-2011, 05:31 PM
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Default If Norm had already logged link time...

Why then at the beginning of the film did he enter his Avatar body with all the doctors around him as if it were his first time doing so?
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:40 PM
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Because the link time he logged wasn't with an actual Avatar. It is said that they have a Virtual Reality that they log into and practice getting used to the being in an Avatar that way when they first get into the real one they don't hurt themselves to bad. Since the Avatars fully mature on the flight out.

But here is more food for thought. Are the Avatars grown from a baby stage to an adult stage that would take 18 years, but since there is almost 6 years of flight time that would mean the Avatar would be 12 years old before they leave. And they have Avatar training for 5 years I think and then the Avatar would be 7 years old. But we assume they have a growth rate enhance. So maybe they accelerate growth till a certain age on Earth then allow the drivers to link to them on Earth before they go to Pandora. But that would bring about a whole different number of questions? How would they breath, Artificial Atmosphere? Gravity is less on Pandora, would the Avatars be able to eventually get around on Earth without problems or would the additional gravity allow the Avatars to develop muscle quicker from normal activities?

More questions and less answers.
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Old 02-20-2011, 07:33 PM
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The above post gets it, except that Avatars (and Na'vi) can breathe an Earth atmosphere perfectly, because the only difference there is a lower level of CO2 and H2S, while their respiration is still oxygen-based, while all the other differences are gases such as xenon that are completely inert, although they would almost certainly need air directly from Earth to be filtered/purified because they wouldn't be used to pollution, and it is mentioned that even humans on Earth are wearing exopacks because the air is so bad.
On Earth, gravity would make it slightly harder for them to move around, although with their strength, it wouldn't be an insurmountable problem, as it's only the equivalent of a human being in 1.4G.

I'd say that removing a developing avatar from the tanks would be difficult and likely dangerous if it was possible at all use of a simulation of some type would seem a logical way to gain experience when the avatar was not yet developed.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:46 PM
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This is interesting to ponder. One might assume that genetically-matched avatars are required because it is still impossible (in the world of the movie) to decode what a brain is thinking without a sufficiently identical copy of that brain. Or, put another way: Everybody's brain has its own unique internal language that nothing else understands, and the best you can hope for is to intercept the inputs and outputs.

...but such a thing would work against the idea of a universal Matrix-like simulation back on Earth, or at least one that fully replicates the experience of being in another body. Hmmm...

I hope we learn more about avatar technology in one of the sequels. There are a lot of interesting gaps in what the movie shows us. One of my favorites to wonder about is: Are avatars capable of independent consciousness? (i.e., is consciousness merely suppressed, or is it genetically excised?) If one assumes that the need for a genetic match between human and avatar is because the brain is not sufficiently well-understood to be generically decoded (as discussed above), then one might also wonder whether it is sufficiently well-understood to be cleanly divided into necessary/unnecessary portions for the purposes of defining an avatar's brain. If not, perhaps an avatar might be "awakened" without a human counterpart. Perhaps even with some "imprints" of its former human counterpart on its own memories. Hmmm...

EDIT: Actually, we of course know that an avatar is not genetically crippled, brain-wise, as otherwise transferring Jake's consciousness into his Avatar would seem pretty difficult.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:10 AM
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The other theory, of course, is that the avatar has been dependent on life support in the tank for at least 6 years, so having doctors around is just a standard safety precaution.
I was under the impression that the avatars were intended not to develop any independent thought trough their nervous system, with the only activity other than basic cellular function when not linked being the basics such as breathing, heartbeat and a low respiration rate. They aren't genetically crippled in that they have a full nervous system, yes, but it could be possible with the technology of the time to make that system non-viable in initially developing awareness. As for memories of the human whose DNA it came from, very unlikely - genetic memory is more instinct, not specific memories from an individual (see: bad scifi where a 'clone' is a complete copy right down to personality and memories - cloning does not work that way).
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
As for memories of the human whose DNA it came from, very unlikely - genetic memory is more instinct, not specific memories from an individual (see: bad scifi where a 'clone' is a complete copy right down to personality and memories - cloning does not work that way).
Definitely. I was referring to the possibility that the consciousness of the human 'driver', being streamed into the avatar's brain, might leave some 'residue'

So many interesting possibilities, of course!
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:36 AM
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I was under the impression that the consciousness stayed inside the human body, sensory inputs were transferred to the from the avatar to the human brain, and voluntary muscular movements were transferred from the human brain to the avatar only. The only true transfer of consciousness seemed to occur during the ritual at the Tree of Souls.

Last edited by Banefull; 02-23-2011 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
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I was under the impression that the consciousness stayed inside the human body, sensory inputs were transferred to the from the avatar to the human brain, and voluntary muscular movements were transferred from the human brain to the avatar only. The only true transfer of consciousness seemed to occur during the ritual at the Tree of Souls.
That's certainly what the movie seems to be conveying, anyway. The requirement of a genetically-matched human/avatar pair just seems (to me, anyway!) to contradict the possibility of a meaningful avatar "simulation" back on Earth (before the avatar was grown). As if humans perhaps don't fully understand what's going on in a human brain and need its twin to serve as an interpreter. And if that's the case, who knows what the unintended side-effects of feeding one brain's raw... "signals"... to another might be?

If driving an avatar could be simulated by generically tapping a brain's sensory inputs and outputs and interpreting these with a computer, then why not simply transpose those inputs/outputs onto any old avatar body?

To summarize: I wonder if the genetic match requirement is more an indication of what humans *don't* know than what they *do* know. ...?

Just spouting ideas!
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:47 PM
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Perhaps doing it with any would mean a loss of precision in movement, and possibly in senses as well - one theory on HOW the link works is also that is works on a principle similar to quantum entanglement, which could require the right genetic structure.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
Perhaps doing it with any would mean a loss of precision in movement, and possibly in senses as well - one theory on HOW the link works is also that is works on a principle similar to quantum entanglement, which could require the right genetic structure.
...oh, that's FASCINATING. Do you have any more details on that theory, HNM?
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:25 PM
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Well, some kind of system based on current technology wouldn't be particularly viable since there is n way tor a signal to be received by the avatar, and transmitting sensory data back is even more difficult. In addition, it working in the middle of the mountains suggests that magnetic fields have little to no effect on its functioning.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:38 PM
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There's one thing you can be sure of. There is no way the designers of the link system would ever let that system have some sort of weakness or design flaw that would somehow interfere with the signal between the driver and the avatar.

E.g., can you imagine what it would be like to be driving your avatar and suddenly there's some sort of interference between you and the avatar, like what the flux vortex could do (possibly) to a comm system based on electromagnetic waves?

You would not want the link to crash. Ergo, the link system must be somehow or another immune from that sort of thing once it is established between the driver and the avatar.

It is almost certainly not based on any current wireless technology, in other words.

This issue (and the question of how Norm had "logged 520 hours" even before driving his avatar has been one that many a fanfic writer has attempted to answer, myself included.

I've always been under the impression that it wasn't your conscious self that you were sending to your avatar but rather you were "controlling" its nervous system, while your own body was asleep, and you were sending and receiving sensory information and the like from the avatar.

Therefore, as was said upthread, it isn't until Jake's soul/conscious is transferred to his avatar permanently that he truly takes control of the avatar.
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:59 PM
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I agree there - there are shots of Jake in the link where it shows him reacting, such as his eyes moving - it;s just the the link between his brain and his body has been temporarily disconnected and the nerve signals are redirected to the avatar instead, and he is receiving the sensory feedback from it, but it still makes his human autonomic systems react (since losing the connection with those would mean his human body would quickly die while linked)
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