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  #31  
Old 08-23-2011, 07:38 AM
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But see his failure to choose actually really helps to make him more three dimensional. Even though he plays a very minor role in the movie Selfridge is actually one of the best written characters. He is not flat and he has a great dimension to his character. IMO he is probably the most interesting character in the movie. We know his motives, we may not agree with them, but we also see that he is dedicated. He also actually has flaws, unlike pretty much everyone else in the movie. These flaws help to flesh him out. Again I really just want to see more of him.


I do think he was a scumbag, but one who could have redeemed himself if given the proper opportunity. By the time the guilt set in there really wasn't much he could do Quaritch was off and running and there was no stopping him.

My Personal Canon: Selfridge goes back to Earth and begins to work with the UN as an ambassador to Pandora, mainly out of guilt and a sense of lose. He screwed up, he knows it, now he is going to try to do what little he can to set it right.
While Selfridge isn't my favourite character (that spot belongs to Trudy), I agree with you that he IS very interesting and nuanced. The actor did an amazing job with what he was given to work with.
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2011, 06:15 PM
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Hehe, that would be cool, Cyvaris - Selfridge certainly had at least a shred of conscience left - but was aware of that only in very short flashes. Yeah maybe that is interesting as he is iin a way a mirror of most people in business these days or even many other people as well - quite dedicated to other stuff, making profit, doing a good job and only rarely touched by a conscience of the implications of that. He certainly was not as full of hate as Quaritch, but still - abit more hints on him really "getting it" would have been nice.

But I dont think the others were flawless. Grace certainly was not (my favourite character by the way ) - she worked with the "bad guys" for a long time - years - and she certainly was an example of distancing. She did not fully accept the connectedness on an emotional level until her death - she just saw it as data. Her human personality differed also from the one when she was inside her Avatar. But you are right that the main characters made the switch of allegiance easier - Selfridge was more locked into a mindset that is quite prevalent today. And he could not fully break out of it. If he had, it would have been more symbolic of people being able to change even if they are so deep into this - but then, that would probably have been unrealistic and cheesy
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2011, 06:25 PM
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Her human personality differed also from the one when she was inside her Avatar.
This is a character flaw? (Also, she was making jokes about getting data when she was dying, but I suspect that's inherited from the "Sigourney Weaver" archetype.)

Also, we know Selfridge survived. We don't know what he does when he gets back to Earth.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:46 PM
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Haha - no not really a flaw, thats true - but it made her - more realistic.
I loved that "take some samples" line when she was coming to her end. But in the end, like right in the end, she was dropping it and just "saw" - that was so moving...

Well who knows what will be with Selfridge. maybe he will also turn. Would be nice...
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  #35  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:12 AM
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But I dont think the others were flawless. Grace certainly was not (my favourite character by the way ) - she worked with the "bad guys" for a long time - years - and she certainly was an example of distancing. She did not fully accept the connectedness on an emotional level until her death - she just saw it as data. Her human personality differed also from the one when she was inside her Avatar.
Grace is also an arrogant, classist misanthrope who needlessly alienated people, particularly people whose education didn't match hers (which, you know, probably isn't their fault - education costs money. Money isn't something that everyone has, particularly not if Earth's economy is as screwed as is implied). If she didn't have Max running around after her smoothing things over, she probably wouldn't have a department to run. So, flaws? Oh, yes.

(I DO like Grace, BTW, and I appreciate her flaws so she isn't a hippy, earth-mother type. Just before anyone flames me)
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  #36  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:43 AM
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On the other hand, she was right. Also, I didn't see Max do much of anything (well, the deleted scenes ) - he was just a technician. Grace was the one who went to Selfridge, with the implication she does often.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:43 AM
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On the other hand, she was right. Also, I didn't see Max do much of anything (well, the deleted scenes ) - he was just a technician. Grace was the one who went to Selfridge, with the implication she does often.
Right about what, that not going to united makes you an idiot? And Max might be a tech-guy, but he seems to run around after her smoothing her appalling people-skills. Not to mention her whining at Selfridge did nothing but make sound very entitled. Certainly didn't improve matters, just made it easy to dismiss her concerns later.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:59 PM
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Grace is also an arrogant, classist misanthrope who needlessly alienated people, particularly people whose education didn't match hers (which, you know, probably isn't their fault - education costs money. Money isn't something that everyone has, particularly not if Earth's economy is as screwed as is implied).
That's elitism, not misanthropy. [/pedantry] She also mellows out a lot when she plugs into her Avatar. (Is that explained, or does she just like being blue?)
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:51 PM
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She likes the Na'vi far more than humans, as is quite clear, and such a feeling that is shared by many of the people here
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:54 PM
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But she's also a lot nicer to Jake. She offers him a fruit just after he runs out the airlock, when she was demanding a cigarette 2 minutes earlier.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:27 PM
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That's elitism, not misanthropy. [/pedantry] She also mellows out a lot when she plugs into her Avatar. (Is that explained, or does she just like being blue?)
Anthropology is the study of what makes us human. She doesn't like humans. Thus, misanthrope. I meant exactly what I said.

And as soon as Jake gets a gun in his hands, she's back to being scornful.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:47 PM
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That's the point - she can see that Jake is already enjoying being in his avatar, and I think is hopeful that he'll realise who are in the right there


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And as soon as Jake gets a gun in his hands, she's back to being scornful.
Exactly - it's what she didn't want to happen. She just lacks sympathy for people who don't understand - just look at how much closer they get as Jake learns.
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  #43  
Old 08-25-2011, 01:17 AM
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That's the point - she can see that Jake is already enjoying being in his avatar, and I think is hopeful that he'll realise who are in the right there



Exactly - it's what she didn't want to happen. She just lacks sympathy for people who don't understand - just look at how much closer they get as Jake learns.
Leaving aside that her being 'right' because we are just going to get in argument (and also leaving aside that having a gun is Jake's job at this point in time), that wasn't my point. My point was as soon as he does something she doesn't like, it's RIGHT back to being 'you are an idiot who can never understand'. So, that brief grin and throwing of the fruit doesn't really contradict her earlier behaviour, as she goes back to how she was before.

I'm also confused that you seem feel that making snap judgements and alienating people you work with isn't a character-flaw. Regardless over if you feel 'she's right' (which is clearly subjective), she's the head of a department. Part of her job is to get everyone to work together. You don't do that by alienating people and going to your boss and stamping your foot when things don't go the way you like them. It makes her an interesting character; it doesn't make her perfect.
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  #44  
Old 08-25-2011, 03:33 PM
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Leaving aside that her being 'right' because we are just going to get in argument (and also leaving aside that having a gun is Jake's job at this point in time), that wasn't my point. My point was as soon as he does something she doesn't like, it's RIGHT back to being 'you are an idiot who can never understand'. So, that brief grin and throwing of the fruit doesn't really contradict her earlier behaviour, as she goes back to how she was before.
Well, she neither asked for nor wanted Jake, and not only ended up with him, but lost Tom, who would have made a huge contribution as she would have wanted. She had a right to be annoyed when he was crashing around waving a gun without any clue as to what he was doing.
Yes, you're right that she goes back to criticising him when he's doing things wrong - but she was willing to give him a chance both before and afterwards.

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I'm also confused that you seem feel that making snap judgements and alienating people you work with isn't a character-flaw. Regardless over if you feel 'she's right' (which is clearly subjective), she's the head of a department. Part of her job is to get everyone to work together. You don't do that by alienating people and going to your boss and stamping your foot when things don't go the way you like them. It makes her an interesting character; it doesn't make her perfect.
That is true enough, but you can use the exact same logic for any other character - does it apply there too?
Technically, whether people all get on is less important than actual results, such as research - something she realised he would be no use at, as shown by how friendly she was to Norm in comparison.
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Old 08-25-2011, 03:43 PM
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Well, she neither asked for nor wanted Jake, and not only ended up with him, but lost Tom, who would have made a huge contribution as she would have wanted. She had a right to be annoyed when he was crashing around waving a gun without any clue as to what he was doing.
Yes, you're right that she goes back to criticising him when he's doing things wrong - but she was willing to give him a chance both before and afterwards.
She only snapped at him BEFORE he got lost in the jungle - before he had a chance to do anything, except exist.


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That is true enough, but you can use the exact same logic for any other character - does it apply there too?
Technically, whether people all get on is less important than actual results, such as research - something she realised he would be no use at, as shown by how friendly she was to Norm in comparison.
He's a trained observer. He was a former corporal in the elite reconnaissance group in the USMC - he's trained to sneak into places without being seen, observe things, and report back accurately. Add to that the high technical component that the military of the future would entail, PARTICULARLY in the special forces (which Jake was a member of) , and I honestly don't see the problem. Maybe he wouldn't know what the things he observed meant, but he's still highly trained at observation.

Good science, as Max said, is good observation.
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