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Old 01-10-2012, 01:13 AM
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Default Norm and his Avatar

there is something that really doesnt make sense to me, and bothers me every time i watch the movie...while in Avatar form, Norm gets shot in the shoulder, and drops like a rock, as if dead. i thought the Na'vi were tougher than that.... then you see him falling out of the link capsule, gasping for air, clutching at his chest and shoulder. heres a quote from the Wiki:

"Whilst Jake led the air assault, Norm rode alongside the Na'vi cavalry, even killing a few RDA troopers. As the unarmored Na'vi were cut down by the RDA troops, his avatar was shot in the left shoulder, causing the neural link to be severed. Back in his undamaged human body, suffering from shock but determined to help, he recovered enough to arm himself with a rifle and don an exopack to rejoin the fray.

how can a shot to the shoulder sever (i assume as in cut, rather than interrupt) the avatar link and in essence kill his avatar? i really dont get this...sloppy thinking or sloppy science/anatomy?
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxRunning View Post
there is something that really doesnt make sense to me, and bothers me every time i watch the movie...while in Avatar form, Norm gets shot in the shoulder, and drops like a rock, as if dead. i thought the Na'vi were tougher than that.... then you see him falling out of the link capsule, gasping for air, clutching at his chest and shoulder. heres a quote from the Wiki:

"Whilst Jake led the air assault, Norm rode alongside the Na'vi cavalry, even killing a few RDA troopers. As the unarmored Na'vi were cut down by the RDA troops, his avatar was shot in the left shoulder, causing the neural link to be severed. Back in his undamaged human body, suffering from shock but determined to help, he recovered enough to arm himself with a rifle and don an exopack to rejoin the fray.

how can a shot to the shoulder sever (i assume as in cut, rather than interrupt) the avatar link and in essence kill his avatar? i really dont get this...sloppy thinking or sloppy science/anatomy?
Two thoughts

1. Maybe Norm WAS shot in the chest or at least supposed to be shot in the chest and we just didn't see it as we were supposed to.

2. When I went young, I once went into shock after a 5 foot fall onto a partially padded wood floor. Norm is a scientist, and it's more than plausible that even a gunshot to his shoulder could have sent him into shock. I could very easily see that cutting the link between Norm and his Avatar. In fact, reading that, it makes a bit more sense to me. I never got the sense that Norm had gone into shock watching the movie.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:53 PM
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Well, his avatar is never confirmed as dead; it only got shot in the shoulder so shouldn't be. Maintaining a link, on the other hand, would be very difficult if there was enough pain - this is visible when Norm exits the link chamber.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:41 PM
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So I took a look at this scene in my video editor.

Norm's link unit control when his exits is showing a red screen with the message "ABORTED CONNECTION". Which by itself doesn't say very much.

However Norm's avatar is, sadly, clearly shot twice.
First to the shoulder:


And then, secondly, to the heart. Which would be a kill shot in almost any creature:

The following frame has a light cloud of blood from the exit wound from this shot, like the 1st frame for the shoulder hit.

The 2nd shot correlates with Norm clutching his chest - not his shoulder - as he exits the link.


Possible he survived? Yes.
But coupled with the fact that we don't see Norm's avatar in in the "chosen to stay" scene; I think it's pretty likely he didn't make it.

- Mikko
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Last edited by mikkowilson; 01-10-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:45 PM
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That's not his heart, that's the upper ribcage. Yep, a lot of people have no clue where the heart is located (assuming it's even in the same place for the Na'vi).

That scene is, at a guess, maybe 3 days maximum afterwards and more likely 1-2. Norm is sensible not to link - if it survived, his avatar is probably in one of those tanks and so incapacitated, and in a lot of pain either way.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
That's not his heart, that's the upper ribcage. Yep, a lot of people have no clue where the heart is located (assuming it's even in the same place for the Na'vi).
I'm perfectly aware of where the heart is in a human, irayo.


In the "language of film"; a shot in the chest is deadly unless told (or revealed later) otherwise.

It's what the audience expects, so the story has to be told that way. The chest clutching re-enforces that same message.

So there may be a reveal that "he made if after all" in the future; but at this point, I interpret that to mean that Norm's avatar is dead. And I believe that's the impression we are supposed to have at this point.

- Mikko
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Last edited by mikkowilson; 01-11-2012 at 06:36 AM.
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  #7  
Old 01-11-2012, 01:23 AM
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I remember the multiple gunshots that Tsu Tey took, plus the 1,000 foot fall, and he is still alive hours afterward.
My brother was on Firebase Maryann in Vietnam when it was over run, and was shot in the chest with a fifty caliber machine gun round, as he exited the door of his hootch. The bullet missed his heart by a quarter of an inch, the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing by his heart could have thrown his heart into arythmia, BUT DIDN'T. He picks himself off the ground, runs over to one of the towers where the North Vietnamese sappers have turned the quad fifties inward on the base. While his one lung is drowning in it's own blood, he climbs the legs of the tower, clubs the four North Vietnamese to death, and then takes out the other three towers with the quad fifty that he re-took.
Once the deadly cross fire in the base was eliminated, some of his buddies went into the tower, and found him passed out over the gun mount, from loss of blood.
He recovered from that, and went on to retire after 27 years in the Combat arms of the Army.
I think what severed the link, was a "science pukes" inability to endure the pain on the hit, severing the link, but to his credit, he recovers from the shock of the pain, and once again joins the battle for the just cause. Norm is a warrior in MY book.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkowilson View Post
I'm perfectly aware of where the heart is in a human, irayo.


In the "language of film"; a shot in the chest is deadly unless told (or revealed later) otherwise.

It's what the audience expects, so the story has to be told that way. The chest clutching re-enforces that same message.

So there may be a reveals that "he made if after all" in the future; but at this point, I interpret that to mean that Norm's avatar is dead. And I believe that's the impression we are supposed to have at this point.

- Mikko
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkowilson View Post
That bullet is clearly heading down to connect with his shoulder. I'm trying to work out where it could be fired from that that could happen.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:51 AM
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I remember that Norm doesn't fall directly backwards, but more kind of spins from the right side, as he was shot in the left shoulder. I think it could go either way, but I'm also inclined to think Norm's avatar is dead, since as Mikko said, he is holding his chest in the link room.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
That bullet is clearly heading down to connect with his shoulder. I'm trying to work out where it could be fired from that that could happen.
Ampsuit?

The terrain is pretty rough (they are in the mountains after all), a foot-soldier on higher ground?

No saying that the camera is perfectly level? For a battle scene; skewed angles are the norm.

Perspective? If the bullet is coming at all from the camera's direction, the downward angle is amplified. (A bullet fired from an inch directly above the camera would appear to be flying straight down as it went away from the camera to it's target.)


Too many variables to speculate.

- Mikko
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  #11  
Old 01-11-2012, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkowilson View Post
I'm perfectly aware of where the heart is in a human, irayo.


In the "language of film"; a shot in the chest is deadly unless told (or revealed later) otherwise.

It's what the audience expects, so the story has to be told that way. The chest clutching re-enforces that same message.

So there may be a reveal that "he made if after all" in the future; but at this point, I interpret that to mean that Norm's avatar is dead. And I believe that's the impression we are supposed to have at this point.

- Mikko
Avatar does break a lot of the 'expectations' in terms of how things work in films, so I don't see how Norm holding his chest has to be anything other than a pain response - having both bodies like that must be confusing when leaving suddenly when pain is involved.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:29 PM
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I may be wrong, but wasn't Norm's gasping reaction on exiting his link chamber originally connected with the deleted scene where Wainfleet kills his Avatar?

That may explain the, as suggested, over reaction to a bullet in the shoulder.
Part of the original scene was cut / re-shot and then re-edited.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:56 PM
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I'm not quite prepared to call deleted scenes canon, myself... the other one with Tsu'tey, for example, appears not to have happened in the new scene for the CE, and then we get to the one at the end of the film, which has huge repercussions for Avatar 2 if true.

Spoiler: Deleted scene 
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:53 PM
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Is Norm's Avatar is considered live when he's not in it, and it's just laying in the cot? I mean I don't know for sure, but does the Avatar function when the link isn't connected, like does the heart beat?

But. I would think that even if his Avatar bled out that they could heal it in the tank, or some other form given what they have. Just speculation though. The extent of medical technology they have isn't shown in the movie so much.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikkowilson View Post
Perspective? If the bullet is coming at all from the camera's direction, the downward angle is amplified. (A bullet fired from an inch directly above the camera would appear to be flying straight down as it went away from the camera to it's target.)


Too many variables to speculate.

- Mikko
I suppose it is very hard to tell precisely where Norm is aiming, and the total featureless of the beam doesn't help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theorist View Post
Is Norm's Avatar is considered live when he's not in it, and it's just laying in the cot? I mean I don't know for sure, but does the Avatar function when the link isn't connected, like does the heart beat?
Presumably, since otherwise he'd have to be in it 24/7. While he probably wouldn't object, (I wouldn't. ) we don't really see that the chamber does any sort of life support.

Quote:
But. I would think that even if his Avatar bled out that they could heal it in the tank, or some other form given what they have. Just speculation though. The extent of medical technology they have isn't shown in the movie so much.
The tank isn't a resurrection machine, so if he's dead, he's dead.
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