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Old 07-14-2012, 11:38 PM
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Default Air in the link chamber

Watching Avatar the other night and when I heard the hissing of when the lid shuts on the link pod. Now, is this making an airtight seal?

If so, then the Pandoran air wouldn't have bothered Jake when he was fighting Quaritch and he wouldn't have gotten pulled back.

And either way, it's curious to me why they didn't have some sort of system set up to provide the drivers in the pods with their own air supply. I mean, they are in a very small, very enclosed space.

And on top of that if something were to go wrong with whatever building the pod is in, a simple filter would go a long way in keeping a driver safe in the pod.

I just think it was a little to convienant to have Jake get pulled out of link at the last minute just because of an air leak.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:33 AM
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They hoped that most of the movie going public wouldn't catch that, and it looks like most didn't. If it didn't happen that way, the movie wouldn't hat that climactic scene in it.
You don't know how tough it is for former Military attack pilots who are still active civilian pilots to watch ANY movie with flying scenes in them, without their B.S. alarms going off almost constantly.
I could have ended the movie halfway through it, by making the air to air scene realistic. Those were Missiles on the weapons rack of Trudy's chopper, and ANY attack pilot worth their time in flight school will tell you that you attack from above and behind on another helicopter, and unload your ordinance of choice right into the engines of your target. You DO NOT make a quick strafing pass down the target to get their attention, and then sit there nose to nose with them.
If I were in her position they never would have known that they were even dead, it would have happened so fast, but that would have taken out Ouaritch half way through the movie.
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:42 AM
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Fighter of Wars, I think if the air were to get messed up in the building, other people in the building usually would've dealt with it. I would think it's unusual for someone to be in a link pod with no one else there to monitor the situation.
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Old 07-15-2012, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Moco Loco View Post
Fighter of Wars, I think if the air were to get messed up in the building, other people in the building usually would've dealt with it. I would think it's unusual for someone to be in a link pod with no one else there to monitor the situation.
Yes, probably against protocal to leave a driver unattended.

But with all the safety precautions that should be in place in the link pod alone. There is no reason Jake should have gotten Pandoran air in the pod.

Sadly there is nothing that says for sure all what the beds are equipped with.

Just speaking from if something were to be built like that today, with harmful atmosphere around, it would most likely have it's own re-breather system built inside for safety.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Fighter-of-Wars View Post
Watching Avatar the other night and when I heard the hissing of when the lid shuts on the link pod. Now, is this making an airtight seal?
Considering the lid doesn't look the lightest thing in the world, perhaps that's some sort of assisting pneumatics? Think a car's boot/trunk.

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Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
They hoped that most of the movie going public wouldn't catch that, and it looks like most didn't. If it didn't happen that way, the movie wouldn't hat that climactic scene in it.
It's rather harsh to say that they wrote the film a certain way because they think the audience is too stupid to see the logic problem.

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I could have ended the movie halfway through it, by making the air to air scene realistic. Those were Missiles on the weapons rack of Trudy's chopper, and ANY attack pilot worth their time in flight school will tell you that you attack from above and behind on another helicopter, and unload your ordinance of choice right into the engines of your target. You DO NOT make a quick strafing pass down the target to get their attention, and then sit there nose to nose with them.
Naughty, naughty, fudging the rules in your favour.

One of my minor peeves with the film was that, if you made it realistic consistently, the logic falls apart around the seams. For example, your plan runs into a couple quite a few problems:
1) the helicopter in question looks like it can turn on the spot, so even attacking from behind won't save you if you get noticed. This is quite likely, because...
2) the helicopters would have long-range sensors, whether that's radar or something else. As cool as the flux vortex is, electromagnetism does not work that way. You'd think this would make attacking easier, but...
3) (I understand) the missiles are IFF-locked, and won't fire on friendlies. However, even if you got around that, it wouldn't really matter, because...
4) the enemy helicopter wouldn't be manned, because there's no need for it to be. The RDA already have remote-controlled bulldozers, and there's very few reasons why they can't also have remote-control helicopters.

But then, if all that were true, we wouldn't get such a fun story. (Not to mention it would be very depressing if the RDA won, and we can't have that.) Want some popcorn?
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:17 PM
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while I'm unsure if the chambers have a seal or not, I do wonder if it might have been a good idea to have a high oxygen feed into them to boast the operator's brain, increase reaction time while in the link.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarke View Post
Considering the lid doesn't look the lightest thing in the world, perhaps that's some sort of assisting pneumatics? Think a car's boot/trunk.


It's rather harsh to say that they wrote the film a certain way because they think the audience is too stupid to see the logic problem.


Naughty, naughty, fudging the rules in your favour.

One of my minor peeves with the film was that, if you made it realistic consistently, the logic falls apart around the seams. For example, your plan runs into a couple quite a few problems:
1) the helicopter in question looks like it can turn on the spot, so even attacking from behind won't save you if you get noticed. This is quite likely, because...
2) the helicopters would have long-range sensors, whether that's radar or something else. As cool as the flux vortex is, electromagnetism does not work that way. You'd think this would make attacking easier, but...
3) (I understand) the missiles are IFF-locked, and won't fire on friendlies. However, even if you got around that, it wouldn't really matter, because...
4) the enemy helicopter wouldn't be manned, because there's no need for it to be. The RDA already have remote-controlled bulldozers, and there's very few reasons why they can't also have remote-control helicopters.

But then, if all that were true, we wouldn't get such a fun story. (Not to mention it would be very depressing if the RDA won, and we can't have that.) Want some popcorn?
You ALWAYS try to "write the rules of combat to give you the advantage" there is no such thing as a fair gunfight.

Air to Air missiles are IFF locked, Air to GROUND missiles are NOT. When she fired the first shots on the Dragon that Quaritch was in they figured that she was on THEIR SIDE. She could have come right over the top of his ship like she did, and from 100 yards above and behind, unload a pair of what look like Hellfire Air to Grounds on it, the "First Punch" WOULD have been HERS to make. A good Ground Attack Pilot KNOWS that once the fight is engaged, their life may be measured in SECONDS, so the ONLY thing that matters is NOT getting out alive, but DESTROYING YOUR TARGET. (You have to trust me on the Gunship pilot mindsets, I have BEEN THERE, fighting for something a LOT less heart stirring that the survival of the Na'vi, and Eywa 'Eveng).

You are right, if it had happened realistically, for all intents and purposes, ANY doubt about who was going to WIN that fight, would have ended right there.

Let's assume for the moment, that the battlefield environment on Earth where these weapons were built HAD IFF interlocks on the Air to Ground Ordinance, This has already been looked into here since the surface battlefield has become SO fluid, especially where Armor is concerned. She Also had chain guns, which have NO IFF. ALL of our dedicated Attack Helicopters are now loaded with Depleted Uranium shells, which will go through armor like butter. So she doesn't go for the Fuel Cells, which are HEAVILY armored, she goes for the ducted fan rotor assemblies on one side of the aircraft, causing severe asymmetric lift, making the Dragon uncontrollable. At THAT point, she keeps the cockpit of the dragon in her sights, emptying everything that she has into anywhere that he might be. She already KNOWS that she is an honorably dead warrior, she MUST send him straight to Hell FIRST. That would be all that would be on her mind, the Valkyries would carry her Spirit home.
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Last edited by Niri Te; 07-16-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:51 PM
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Sounded more like a pneumatic lift to me. That lid is probably heavy.

They don't have their own air supply because they're already in a sealed environment. One inside it would be redundant and add additional maintenance complexity and cost, even if it didn't interfere with the link, which would seem like a possibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moco Loco View Post
Fighter of Wars, I think if the air were to get messed up in the building, other people in the building usually would've dealt with it. I would think it's unusual for someone to be in a link pod with no one else there to monitor the situation.
Exactly. Indeed, there's even the emergency stop button, for if there was some environmental breach... and the buildings are all pressurised above ambient, so small damage can be withstood for a while without CO2/H2S coming in. as air will be escaping instead.

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Originally Posted by Niri Te View Post
They hoped that most of the movie going public wouldn't catch that, and it looks like most didn't. If it didn't happen that way, the movie wouldn't hat that climactic scene in it.
Nope. No reason it isn't a pneumatic assist in the lid - you know, of the type found in just about every car boot.

Quote:
You don't know how tough it is for former Military attack pilots who are still active civilian pilots to watch ANY movie with flying scenes in them, without their B.S. alarms going off almost constantly.
This is not at all relevant. Nobody needs yet another reminder about your life in every single thread.

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I could have ended the movie halfway through it, by making the air to air scene realistic. Those were Missiles on the weapons rack of Trudy's chopper, and ANY attack pilot worth their time in flight school will tell you that you attack from above and behind on another helicopter, and unload your ordinance of choice right into the engines of your target. You DO NOT make a quick strafing pass down the target to get their attention, and then sit there nose to nose with them.
If I were in her position they never would have known that they were even dead, it would have happened so fast, but that would have taken out Ouaritch half way through the movie.
Niri Te AKA "Bad News"
There were no missiles on her helicopter at that point. They were present when she stole it, but not during the battle - safe to assume they were used at some earlier point, perhaps. Indeed, perhaps she ditched them as useless weight since they wouldn't have worked anyway, since they use an IFF system - even if they had overridden the IFF for her helicopter, she might not have time to do the same for all the others'. The blades were well armoured unless you were completely perpendicular to the ground - it's far better thought out than you want to admit.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:31 PM
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I am not going to argue with you HNM, it is pointless. Every time I bring up why I know about helicopter warfare, you say I'm on a soapbox. I do wish that you would qualify your rebuttals, though NOT here, We have kicked this horse enough. Please PM me and tell me. It seems like you were not a Military Attack Pilot, but you may have been on the design team for the Westland Lynx, I don't know.
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Last edited by Niri Te; 07-20-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 07-21-2012, 12:49 AM
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They don't have their own air supply because they're already in a sealed environment.
But yet there is an air mask for every passenger on every airliner just incase the something were to go wrong. And on top of that an airliner can drop to safe breathing altitude and not require the breathing masks. On Pandora there is no safe zone to fall into if something were to fail, you breath the filtered/supplied air or die.

Quote:
One inside it would be redundant and add additional maintenance complexity and cost,
Additional maintenance and complexity would be very minor. The head units are very simple in there appearance and operation, and although it would require a little bit of integration into the pod it seems like it would be a good idea to have been implemented. Just like the assisted lid close/open wasn't necessary but was good to have been integrated.

Quote:
even if it didn't interfere with the link, which would seem like a possibility.
That is doutful, if that was to be integrated into the pod it would be a constant in the link variables, just like the many other features the pod has. The weight, clothing, and mental state of the driver would (in theory) cause more interference in the link than an integrated air system.

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Exactly. Indeed, there's even the emergency stop button, for if there was some environmental breach... and the buildings are all pressurised above ambient, so small damage can be withstood for a while without CO2/H2S coming in. as air will be escaping instead.
But that is extremely dangerous to use. And it was my thinking that what if an Avatar was in a situation where he was climbing a very tall moutain, or riding an ikran, or dozens of other situations where the driver were to lose control would result in death of the Avatar. And that is why I thought the button was considered very dangerous, minuse the possibilty of some other complication from being yanked from your Avatar unnaturally.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:33 AM
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This is something that really bugged me. Take a exo-pack into the link chamber Jake! Dammit you know the whole shack is in a fire zone, you know there could be a breach. Put a mask on and link!

Speaking of which shouldn't Trudy be having some problems as well? You know with bullets braking the glass front paneling of her Samson?
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:07 PM
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This is something that really bugged me. Take a exo-pack into the link chamber Jake! Dammit you know the whole shack is in a fire zone, you know there could be a breach. Put a mask on and link!

Speaking of which shouldn't Trudy be having some problems as well? You know with bullets braking the glass front paneling of her Samson?
They had to seriously suspend reality in order for the movie to have the end in the way that it did, so that it would have the message that it did be as powerful as it was, to as many people as it was. That is why no exo packs. ANY time that we were in a combat zone where gas had the possibility of being used, we weren't an arm's reach from our masks. The shortcuts that were taken with the helicopter scenes were glaring. Just like the Hellfires that could NOT be used due to IFF's on the bad guys, but they had no problem in using them to blow up Trudy's ship, which ALSO had an IFF box.
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Fighter-of-Wars View Post
But yet there is an air mask for every passenger on every airliner just incase the something were to go wrong. And on top of that an airliner can drop to safe breathing altitude and not require the breathing masks. On Pandora there is no safe zone to fall into if something were to fail, you breath the filtered/supplied air or die.
An aeroplane's O2 masks are actually fairly token. If there is a pressure breach, it needs to get low relatively quickly, because while yes, they will help people survive, it isn't a measure to stay up there.

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Additional maintenance and complexity would be very minor. The head units are very simple in there appearance and operation, and although it would require a little bit of integration into the pod it seems like it would be a good idea to have been implemented. Just like the assisted lid close/open wasn't necessary but was good to have been integrated.
Perhaps, but it's a case of "If it can be provided better centrally, do it and save" as seen on any truly high availability system, where redundancy comes from multiple units and not from making every single unit bulletproof for more cost than simply having two.

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That is doutful, if that was to be integrated into the pod it would be a constant in the link variables, just like the many other features the pod has. The weight, clothing, and mental state of the driver would (in theory) cause more interference in the link than an integrated air system.
True enough, but, it's still an extra. The links in the mobile unit seem older and possibly less well maintained, a failure of a local air supply in a unit that would have to be airtight as a result has worse potential consequences by killing the operator.

Quote:
And it was my thinking that what if an Avatar was in a situation where he was climbing a very tall moutain, or riding an ikran, or dozens of other situations where the driver were to lose control would result in death of the Avatar.
Yes, it's very dangerous. However, if the operator is about to die, that's a secondary danger.
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And that is why I thought the button was considered very dangerous, minuse the possibilty of some other complication from being yanked from your Avatar unnaturally.
I always considered it as being both.

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Originally Posted by Cyvaris View Post
This is something that really bugged me. Take a exo-pack into the link chamber Jake! Dammit you know the whole shack is in a fire zone, you know there could be a breach. Put a mask on and link!
Now this is actually true enough... but I'd have thought of Norm as having thought of that, rather than Jake.

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Speaking of which shouldn't Trudy be having some problems as well? You know with bullets braking the glass front paneling of her Samson?
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Originally Posted by Human No More View Post
...and the buildings are all pressurised above ambient, so small damage can be withstood for a while without CO2/H2S coming in. as air will be escaping instead.
Buildings and vehicles. Quaritch's windscreen gets damaged by Trudy too.
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