hey!^^ im glad you came in here! I see what you mean by how men are told what they are too.. like there is no inbetween.. i think we should all be treated with respects as an individual and have our own self fashion.. what you said about the poor China babies' feet made me sick to my stomach in the sense that it was completely cruel... i cant see why they would do that? same with the corsets! all they do is want discomfort for women so they can look more attractive for the man.. wow.. that is brutal.. just had to add that..

I agree with what you say here Gunny. When it comes to dressing up for an interview, a business meeting, church, a wedding, a funeral, etc then yes, you should dress appropriately for the occasion. I dress up when I go to church and to special occasions like the ones mentioned. I make sure that I look appropriate because its the proper thing to do. However, I think that Alleycat and others are getting at is the gross materialism that comes with obsessing over fashion and the looks of the individual. Of course there will be some physical attraction to the person that you wish to date/marry, etc. That is part of the chemistry but its not the total person.

Sovereign, thank you for bringing up the issue of gender roles because this is a source of much confusion now. It is sad that women are being objectified at the same time men are being asked to be dumbed down, etc. That isn't true either. Men are just as diverse as women. If a man is sensitive then that doesn't mean he is gay,etc. True masculinity doesn't mean being a sex-crazed, agressive, maniac. No. True Masculinity means to be loyal, kind, strong, and protective. That can take different forms and of course men can be compassionate as well, etc. Women are more nurturing. Afterall, it is women who are the ones that bear the babies. I know that gender roles have been reversed, etc but honestly men, do you find yourself attracted to or intimidated by a woman who wants to act more like a man?

I might be getting off on another subject here in regards to gender roles and how they are perceived. They are constantly changing. The current attitude toward gender is still, I believe, a reaction to the sillier aspects of gender roles in the 19th century that resurfaced in the 1940's and 1950's. The roles are not so black and white but what I think has been detrimental to society is the building up of women to the point of dumbing down or feminizing men.

My point is is that there has been this silly competition between the sexes for too long. We have our different gifts and when they come together, they complement one another. Instead, we have had this silly competition between the two which isn't good nor is it healthy.

Ok...I think I have rambled off topic...forgive me :).

Ally, I agree with you completely on everything.

I'm not willing to conform into a social ideal, because quite frankly that's not who I am. I'm not one for fashion, I don't think about things like that...I simply wear what I like, what I feel comfortable in and most of all what reflects me personally. I'm a bit weird in the terms of 'fashion sense', well in comparison to popular fashion, because I like to wear bright colours, funky patterns, crazy shoes, haha xD
But I wear all that stuff because I find it interesting, and I think it fits me personally. I'm not going to go out my way to find out what everybody else is wearing, just in order to fit in...heck, most of the time they buy all their clothes in Primark, and I refuse to go anywhere near that place.

Then, as you said, the pressure set by the media is a standard set too far. Where is the individuality? They have seemingly stripped it from women and made them into objects, not people. I mean who can look perfect all the time? (not me that's for sure xD)...What I have gathered from popular trends in beauty and style (in the area that I live) is that you have to be very thin, tanned, caked in make up, and perferably dye your hair blonde. Just...no thanks.


Completely agree. Just...everything. Agreed :P

nice rant Leyra! thank you for participating!:P

it is true.. no one should change who they are just cause of what society thinks is cool.. i am happy to be your friend cause you are SO cool! :P you dont change for anyone.. and having a different and individual fashion sense is amazing.. everyone needs to be different haha

i guess im totally against the society.. cause im not an object, and im not thin, tanned, caked in makeup OR blonde.. im opposite of ALL! haha and im happier this way! plus your red hair is beautiful :D

It's really sad, everywhere for men they sell the same styled shirts, theres no difference, it's trademark surfer, punk style with extremely clashing colours. I'm all for colours, but those ultraviolet colours burn the eyes, they are the only thing they seem to sell, as if they expect me to conform the the norm of people who have no respect to wear what they want, it's difficult, maybe i should not wear clothes at all :P

haha you go Cyan!! dont wear those clothes ;) its true tho.. its the same with men in a sense.. they almost have to go through the same thing :( its stupid

yea we do as well :( you have to be tan like this, have muscles like this, bla bla bla...

I don't let it bother me though... am I the guy with the biggest muscles around? Heck no! I'm like the complete opposite, and to be honest am a little self conscious when I go to the beach, honestly when I'm done in the water I dry myself off and immediately throw a shirt on. people say I shouldnt care but I just can't it's something that bites me in the back of my mind... waaaaayyyyy off topic now lol sorry

but yea you can see that in guys too

it is true,, i definitely agree that men have pressure too.. they do! it isnt fair about the muscles.. not everyone wants them or can have them !:P

this is what makes you an awesome person.. you dont want those things just cause people think they are hot.. you are yourself. and sure, you will get self conscious.. everyone does. we have flaws and will never be perfect :P haha i do think you have nothing to worry about and sorry about the beach shirt thing.
and its ok :)

Hehe, allycat, ty, leyra, cedrica dream you are all my loveable angels :D

haha thats cute! our little cute community of fangirls lol

Basically though, think of women like this. The generic media girl has a thin, shapeless body without style or areas to caress and no substance, when a curvy girl is like a vase or ceramic, lots of shape, beauty and figure with a body much more interesting, and beautiful than a dull stick. I wuvvv youuu kitty kat :)

I understand. The pressure of body image affects both genders, and even if you have tough skin it can really affect your self esteem...
I don't think anybody should be a certain way, people come in all shapes and sizes and that's good...it's healthy.
Do all men necessarily need defined muscles? I don't think so. Nor do I think women should all be thin.
But even if people accept themselves for what they are, there is still that doubt, that worry that lingers, and it's unfortunate.

I'm the same way on the beach, I'm just generally quite self conscious, I know I shouldn't be...but I am.

i wuvvv you too Cyan! you couldnt be more right!! :P we are like hourglasses :D:D
true true Leyra :) im glad so many people here care about each other rather than looks.. and everyone IS different!!

I know it all too well... I don't look particularly 'normal', and I love it :D

Really, all those people who all look the same, nasty fake tans (or even a natural one, I'm not such a fan of, but that's not as bad as fake), the same hair, the same clothes, always pressured to try and fit themselves into something...
...it disgusts me.

you are epic!^^ always stay true to yourself ;)

it's nasty.. its degrading to us as human beings..

Please somebody make allycat our first female moderator :D

haha wow thanks Cyan :D

[Wall of text incoming]

Hm, do I sound like a bad person for disagreeing with this? I personally think that clothes have been inflated to a ridiculous level… I don’t understand why one should have to “dress up with a tie and suit” for an interview. I can’t think of any other reason, other than “because society says that’s how it’s supposed to be.”

In my opinion clothes should be for warmth only… That’s all. Different colours of clothes should only exist for different absorption of heat, that’s all. Not for style or anything.

As much as you’re going to dislike this I’ll add one of my comics here, I feel it’s appropriate.-

http://i39.tinypic.com/35d9bhu.png

Basically, I’ve never understood what’s wrong with having a label. It’s just, when the really brainwashed lash out… People are so obsessed with ‘trying to prove their individuality’ but they look in completely the wrong places.

To be perfectly honest, style is just an illusion… An illusion that everyone fails to see past…. And those who do instantly get ridiculed… I get very angry [well, not any more, I’ve just given up] with people who ask me what the latest news on celebrities is, because I REALLY couldn’t give a Thanator’s bottom about when ‘these two’ split up.

It also angers me that women are forced to try and conform to a world that conspires against them… So many of my female-friends stress the same point… “If I don’t wear THIS much makeup, or get THIS bikini, then I’m unpopular”. Etc.

Why does the media do this to people? It’s the same with us of the male side [to a lesser degree I’ll admit] Where we’re pressured by the media to go down the gym daily and get six packs if we’re to have ‘any hope of getting a girlfriend’. Oh I’m just sick of it all.

I want a soul-friend/mate who I can spend my life with… Not some plastic person with piercings in every possible location and makeup put on with a trowel.

I could write more but I’m sleepy… It’s 2 am : \

But just to reassure you… There are people of the male gender who just want to be loved, just like people of the female side. It’s just so hard finding someone when everyone is forced to paint themselves one colour.

I conclude; I want my Neytiri :(

I'm (mostly) with Mune, although I disagree on part. I think that people should really do what they want, look how they want, but not that there should only be colours for heat absorption. That would just be dull and depressing. Everyone should express their individuality, wear what they want to, it would make things a lot more interesting I think.

99% of the time, I wear either tshirts of metal bands, or ones with computer-related humour/images etc. It's all I ever wear because it's what I want to, that's my style. I really don't mind what people think as a result (read Mune's comic again. That's exactly it)

EXACTLY. All that is a huge turn off for me, like I said earlier.

It's the same for men too, there are all these adverts, with fake people. Nobody looks like that, nobody can, and I don't even want to.

I'd have to say Ally, I agree with you in every word of your post :)
Most of what has been said is similar to my own views..
I can honestly say that I've dressed like myself for years now and haven't felt happier.
Even though I get weird looks and am labeled as a stoner, bum ect. I would rather be thought of as a weirdo and be considered insane in a society where the real insanity leaks through the lifeblood of all it's practitioners..
I know that there are others out there like me, mostly guys but as a woman..I wish that more females would stand up for themselves, kick off their uncomfortable shoes and turn off their straighteners..hell even getting rid of annoying make up.
Do you see any tribes people dolling themselves up, setting themselves up for a disappointment when they don't reach the lofty pedestal that society has put up for them?
I don't and to be honest, I think tribes people have genuine strength and beauty..

i agree with you Pa'li :) , a lot of people at my school say that i should "change" the way i look ... and well, it's impossible to make them understand that the real beauty is buried in all that make-up and the straighteners, meh ... im not gonna change the way i look :P , i love myself :D :D

Hmmm yeah and it's still the same even in Uni/College the girls there drive flashy cars, have glossy hair and fancy clothes..
I stand there and wonder, is it really worth it?
I doubt material possessions set you apart from everyone else if they all dress alike.
It's a vicious cycle too: the trends come and go and they're are dictated to everyone who will listen by some faceless people at the top of the corporate fashion chains..
I don't want to spend all my life acting as a slave to everyone's ideals and perceptions..
I'm sure none of us do either..
Thoughts of materialism and vanity vanished after I watched Avatar..
Now I want to throw out all of my old possessions which disgust me now :P

about the cars ... i think that's really pointless , i prefer cycling or walking :P . I know some people who would die if they can't use a straightener or don't have make up to use, so wrooooong :( , and Avatar totally sent my thoughts of materialism to the trash bin :D :D (thanks Avatar woooo!) and made me know how to appreciate all the natural things around me, even myself hahaha :D , oh i see you changed your signature picture haha, full HD Jake :P

Hehehe yep, and it looks so pretty too!!
*grins and hugs HNM for the pic*
Yeah I know, I catch public transport all the time and rarely use straighteners.
:) Avatar was the best thing that happened to all of us I think.

Indeed :D , it's funny cuz at school some girls are chasing me just to straighten my hair hahaha, they dunno how cool we are without all that stuff :)

:D agreed!

I have to say I'm not as "pure" as all of you--I'm a smidge materialistic (though I won't tell anyone outright it becomes obvious when you see all the "stuff" I have). Not only that, but I'm a pack-rat so I keep anything and everything...

I know this because myself (and my parents) had to spend over two hours packing all my belongings into the van to come home from college (for the last time). It all barely fit. I found myself wondering if I really need all that stuff. Unfortunately, I did not have an epiphany, "I-should-give-this-up-and-do-something-else" or similar. I thought "Oh, well, if I can carry it in I can carry it out. And if I can carry it and it fits in the car, I'm keeping it."

/hides

haha ^^ its ok.. doesnt make u any less of a good person :P i guess it depends haha

I agree on Mune with this one i really do.. except for the colours thing cause i like colours.. especially blue haha

and you go Pa'li!! that is the right attitude to have!! see after I saw Avatar, i actually stopped wearing makeup ENTIRELY i hate it.. its not me. its like im wearing a mask.. and i dont straighten my hair EVER...(not anymore haha i used to but only a few times a year haha) and i dont EVER wear heels either.. i sold my nice boots to someone cause they hurt my feet and its pointles.. but all in all its true that we should not be slaves ever and should have our own way of living.. and i think so too the tribes are very beautiful and natural people.. cause they dont believe in our world.. sometimes i wish i could be one of them, but it would be so hard to adapt to such an environment after being in the one i am in now :P haha
but yeah, WE SHOULD BE OURSELVES AND NO ONE ELSE!!!
i do admit i wear like short shorts in the summer and tanks and stuf.. but only cause its comfortable, not because i wanna look like a skank, but because in the summer it gets pretty warm and if i wear a little less it makes it alittle more cooler and more comfortable.. plus im trying to up my self esteem :) it helps! haha i dont care how people look at me.. this is me.. and i will do what i want.. and i wear flip flops with a skirt.. i dont care,,.. its comfy haha

If only more people could be like you... :)

Completely agree.
We should feel comfortable with who we are, with our own style and appearance. We shouldn't have to listen to society dictation of how we should be. Individuality is important. I'd much rather be myself in all aspects than to try and conform with popular trends and styles.

I haven't wore make up in so long, I mean what is the point really? I feel it's much more healthy to rid of it completely and embrace any flaws, rather than trying to conceal them from the world.

awww HNM you are too sweet :D

it is true Leyra!! i find putting makeup on actually just makes it even worse for your face.. like foundation.. that stuff is crap for your face.. its not worth it to even put it on! what do you think the tribes people do when they get blemishes? do they go out of their way to put makeup on? no! cause they dont care.. its not natural.. it isnt good im sorry to say.. it just hides who we really are and its awful! the only makeup the Na'vi even wear is warpaint.. which serves a purpose haha

and same with the clothes!! we all have our own styles! i find that things have gotten SO MUCH WORSE within the last ten years with appearance its not even funny.. its just getting worse and worse, and it is not fair.. i fear the future.. there will be clones EVERYWHERE :(

Oh my Eywa... Just yes. To everything. So much agreed.

haha^^ you are so epic and awesome!!! all of you are :D

:). I like your attitude. I don't wear make up often. Back in HS I didn't wear it at all. Now, I only wear it, and only a little bit, to church and on special occasions like a wedding, funeral, going to an interview, going to a opera, a special date, etc. Those are the only times I do it. I admit that I don't have very good skill when it comes to make up. I don't care honestly.

As for as straightening my hair. I don't need to. I was born with thin, straight, dark blonde hair. My mom made me get a perm back in middle school. I HATED it. I just wanted my hair long and straight. That is how I have always worn it. I didn't want to have the latest hairstyle and I don't want it now.

As for as boots...lol...I love boots. Especially high heeled ones. I have several pairs and I mostly wear them to church.



True. However, even tribal people have their own beauty standards. In some parts of Mongolia, there is a tribe that has women who have VERY long necks. What they do is they put big rings around their necks when they are little children and as they grow, the neck elongates. In fact, it elongates so much that it would be fatal if the rings came off. In other tribes, such as some in the Amazon, its a mark of a very beautiful person to have a lip plate in their mouth. It also used to be the custom in China to bind baby girls feet so that they will be very tiny.

Humans have always found ways to do wear stuff to themselves to make them look "beautiful". Each culture had a different standard for that.


Agreed :).


That's fine. What you describe is normal attire here in Florida and I have worn flip flops with a skirt :). We all do that here, especially now when the weather is much warmer.

I find someone who is being themselves to be far more interesting and attractive than someone who is trying to copy what they are told they should be like. they're also far more likely to be mentally interesting, I guess, someone more likely to be able to share interests and talk with.

Allycat: well said. I agree. Fashion is all well and good if you're into that sort of thing (I myself don't understand and don't much care about it), but it's completely unreasonable to combine fashion with peer pressure -- society's requirements for "looking good" strike me personally as being ridiculous, and it's just plain wrong for all people to feel obligated to "live up to" them.

Your husband is right, you know. :) From what I've seen of you on the forums, you're beautiful where it matters: on the inside!

As do I. I try to look my best, but I do it my own way. I wouldn't be caught dead with a T-shirt advertising a clothing company, for example, and I'm unimpressed by local department stores' habit of selling blue jeans with holes already torn in them. I also happen to like wearing socks and sandals -- my classmates sometimes tease me about it, but who cares?

Hey, wait a minute, what? I'm sure there are a fair number of creepy guys like that (I'm fortunate in that I've not met many people like that), but we're not all mindless slaves to our hormones... :) I don't get the whole guy/girl distinction -- what's the point? Girls and guys are both human beings! As to "human beings" versus "toys" ... I'm looking for true friendship, not this "friendship with benefits" nonsense. Friendship implies equality, not objectification.

Ditto. :) (Who are "ke$ha" and "Akon"?)

Exactly this! That's how I feel.

I don't understand this. The fashionable clothing stores near my university advise that you wander about dressed in what are effectively nothing more than overpriced undergarments (or at least that's what all the models in their windows are wearing). Lack of individuality aside ... why would anyone willingly wear the sort of clothes they're selling? They're expensive, impractical, and undignified.

I agree on both of these :)

I don't quite go that far, and I do own jeans which are falling apart as well as intact ones, but I really couldn't care less whether other people do it or not. It's what I'm comfortable wearing. Just like I hate clothes which are just some brand name (and those are always brands I would never want to associate myself with either) - 99% of the time, I wear metal band tshirts or ones with computer references/jokes, because that's what I like, it's what I feel comfortable with.

It works both ways, for both genders. I certainly know of girls like that too...

Rubbish musicians (using the term 'music' in it's broadest possible definition here :P ), making the kind of mainstream rubbish you hear on the radio all the time (another reason I don't listen to radio). You don't want to know...

Because so many people are, in effect, basically brainwashed by the media. 'YOU MUST BUY THIS. YOU MUST DO THIS. YOU MUST LOOK LIKE THIS. IF YOU DO NOT, YOU WILL NEVER BE CONSIDERED ATTRACTIVE'... People actually believe it :'(

*gulp :s

i hate fashion and most all "good music" is horrible.I have never listened to peer pressure. Everyone at my school has facebook or some other stupid social networking site. i have never had on or any intention of getting one. i might get this "skype" thing, but only for AVATAR related purposes(people here).