This is what I never understood.

AF never really changed that much. There's ads, there's an ugly skin, but I can move around that and still have some great discussions with some awesome people. I'll admit AF is a little dead right now (there's only so much you can talk about), but I assure you it isn't as bad as people make it up to be.

Hmm... I agree, it's not quite as bad as people make out, but there's just something about it - something I can't put my finger on.

Anyway... Kaltxi 'awve taronyu!

Very true Caveman. I don't prefer any one forum over the other. Both have many good people.

I am a dedicated AVF member. I love Avatar Forums. I think it is more active then this place but most of my friends are here. This is the only reason I even post here.

Yeah, I've got friends on both sides so I try and stay in contact with all. Though I haven't been on either forum this week until now. Good to be back.

Just my 2 cents, though I don't know how relevant it is since I am not as active as I know some members are.

I came to all the Avatar forums through the Avatar Forums site, and it has since branched off to ToS and also Navi Forums Artists, though I think the latter is meant for more of the creative minded ones. There are also tons of Avatar groups active on DeviantART.

I feel kind of torn because I'm not sure which one to go to. I think this one looks beautiful and aesthetically and programming-wise it feels the need, but AF is still the old home. I would love to see everyone on one forum but I know there are reasons that can't be so.

EDIT: The turning point for me to probably stick with ToS and abandon AF altogether is because I paid to be a premium "donor" or whatever it was on there, which promised a golden name and no more ads! Well with the layout revamp my name looks the same as everyone else, and there are ads galore! I mean the donation was 30 US, which isn't small considering this is for an entertainment forum. I'm really disappointed!

I donated to AF too, back in the day... I'm still happy I did in a way, because back then, I really did need AF, it kept me going for a long time before ToS did, about 3 months... I did initially try to still look around AF and see what was going on, but I stopped doing that shortly after, things are just too different there...

Either way, welcome to ToS :D

I sort of... won my gold name through a photoshop contest. :P

But yes, welcome full-time on ToS, kaliko. :)

That sucks kaliko, I donated to AF too, back in the day. Welcome to ToS! :party:

^This, its sad that ToS had to come into existance really...

Agreed. I was a huge advocate for re-uniting the forums, but at the time I underestimated the effort that went into making this one.

Looking back (as an active AF member to this day), I don't blame Lon for the changes he made. It's easy for everyone to get angry if things don't go their way or the administrator isn't there all the time. However, it is important to remember that Lon makes a living from these kinds of sites (at least to my understanding). Making AF look flashy and mainstream probably brought him more income. That may sound greedy, but can you really blame the guy?

Also, I had an idea I pitched today on AF. I was talking to a couple original members who were visiting and I thought we should all make a pact, that when Avatar 2 comes out, we all return under one forum to catch up on each other and share out thoughts about the new movie. Like an Avatarforums, 5-year family reunion. A lot of members have come and gone, and it would be cool if we all agreed to come together after the sequel comes out. Honestly, I doubt I'll be here in 5 years. Not to say I don't like this place, I love it. But even the most dedicated of the dedicated have left, and regardless of who's left after 5 years (or whenever it comes out), we all come back. Thoughts?

100% agreed. couldn't of said it better

I like to think of this forum as a community for all the hardcore Avatar fans. We've all been around for a few months, and in that time we've gotten to know each other very well. It's like we're family.

If you've ever been on NaviBlue.com, then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

I tried to register on Naviblue a few months back, but for some reason, I couldn't.

ToS came into existence as the result of a natural dispute among AF's members when the community had grown too large.

A larger, broader community such as today's AF is the perfect community for some people, and a horrible community for others. ToS was a result of this dislike of what AF was on its way to become.

AF is not "bad", it's simply different, and therefore some members like it and some don't. Likewise, the reasons ToS came into existense are not "sad", they were a part of a natural process.

They do coexist in peace. Not sure why you'd think they don't.

Another thing, AF is not big. When people say, "Oh, yeah AF is a little bigger and more mainstream", I laugh. AF is probably half the size of ToS.

And I also disagree with blaming the split on "the family getting to big". Back in AF's prime, January, the number of active members was probably peaking. By March, the family from "the glory days" was smaller and decreasing.

If anything, I blame the split on the Oscars. That just turned the place into an overnight Troll-fest madhouse. But as expected, it was just a phase. AF quickly returned to what it was originally, but by that time it was too late. A few people wanted out, a new forum, and everyone kinda jumped on the bandwagon.

caveman - it's true that today AF is not nearly as big as it used to be - and it's also true that the peak probably was around January-March.

However, the difference is not made out by the size itself, but the mentality the larger userbase and previous size has caused. Not a better nor worse mentality, but a different one. And that's something you surely notice, since AF is different than ToS in many ways.

nooo no no no no no... The ToS founders had a falling out with most of the moderation staff. So...

Exactly.

AF is different. There is a different feel, a different attitude, different discussions (at least when I used to still read there, which admittedly I haven't bothered doing for quite a while)

ToS is smaller, closer, the connections we make go beyond Avatar, but we always remember our roots.
On AF, things are perhaps less close - back in the day, it was much like ToS is, but that did change as it grew, and I do still think the admin change sped that process up.

I've never really checked out naviblue much, buit I get the feeling it is similar to AF.
Again, that's fine, it serves a different purpose but we are all part of the same community, we even have many members in common.

I AM also on learnnavi and semi-active there, I find it very different to any of the other sites as the main emphasis is on the Na'vi language rather than Avatar itself. Again, that's fine, it's a different type of pace, but there are many people who that is what they want from it.

We are all Na'vi - just different clans. We may do things different, but in the end, we have a lot in common.

I hope this makes sense... I'm tired (haven't slept for 36+ hours) and very busy at the moment, but I felt I had to reply to this.

Edit: Aihwa is right about the oscars - that died down again fairly rapidly... AF did attract more random trolls, but that is to be expected with it's prominence (thank you CNN...). If anything, the seeds had been planted before then though.
There was no single cause - for some people some may be clearer than others... Personally, I felt that AF had changed to the point that it was not the forum I had joined originally, which truly Saw me and let me feel at home... I have been on MANY forums from a normal user to to a mod - some I left, some I'm still on, some I just faded away from... but I have never experienced anything like ToS or AF - it is truly something unique. To me, and to Eltu, that was worth preserving.

Hey, Kaltxi Caveman! :hi: Long time no speak from me! Must be about 3 months! Believe it or not I have been on the forums constantly, but living in 'PM' land doing the Avatar Communities Film Project thingy. Only now as I tie up the loose ends am I finding time to come back on to the front side of the forums.

I wasn't close to the kerfuffle that caused the split, but I really don't have a problem with there being two 'close' forums. I just consider them like two Na'vi clans. You'll easily find people on both of them - me included. I feel I have friends on both forums. Besides we have had people from both forums have take part in the film project and it's all worked out fine.

The thing that goes through my head is how these forums will evolve through the coming months and how long will they exist? I suspect they will be around for a bit until a little while after the 3D Bluray has been released next year. But then what? Will they fade away? Will they continue at a low level? Will they become more of a friends forum?

I really don't want to loose touch with the new friends I've made both here and on AF. And these places are great meeting places. We have our own 'in-house' talk with a spattering of Na'vi thrown in for good measure. It is a unique comminuty that has been brought together by the creativity and imagination of Jame Cameron, which has clicked in us somewhere for some reason and brought us all together. I hope it continues. I don't want to 'wake up' quite yet...

Oel ngati kameie,

Alan

Whoa, hold on!

I just checked and ToS had 490 members in total. AF, on the other hand:
'Most users ever online was 3,207, Yesterday at 05:34 PM.'

I too was at AF early on (about Mid-Jan) & was appalled at the troll-explosion during the Oscars---the big fuss about PAD brought out a un-needed amount of trolls also....So I decided to look elsewhere & happily ended up here--I am not the most prolific poster, but it is good to be able to come here & post without feeling "strange"--If I were to say some of the things I say here to my workmates or others I would most surely have quite a bit of grief....

I did pop in on AF from time to time, but have not gone there in about 3 months or so--was not close to anyone there so I feel that I have not lost much---I feel closer to people here & like the general mood, so I guess that my home is here.

Thank you everyone for listening to me ramble--I do care deeply for you all!!!!

Oel ngati kameie,
Drewan

Yay, more people to say Hai to. :party:

Kaltxi Drewan. I couldn't agree with you more about the openess at places like this. If folks around me and at work were to read some of the heart felt stuff I've posted in the past, I'm sure the looks of their faces would resemble a dog chewing a wasp.

I guess we can feel more open here because to a certain extent we can hide behind the forum. If we were to meet face to face would we be as open I wonder? The other reason is possibly because we have been affected in a similar way by the subject matter and story that is Avatar. Like the Na'vi have a deep connection with their surroundings, we seem to have developed our own deep understand with each other over the past 6 months or so. For me I have found this equally present in both forums where I have joined in.

As for rambling. Don't you worry, that's what these place are for. Just look at my waffle above!

Eywa ngahu,

Alan

I'm saying it's sad because it forced people to choose between 2 groups of people that loved the same thing-Avatar. AF was great back in december January (not that ToS isn't) and everything was fine for awhile, then after some other things happened, people got pissed about a little miniscule change and went off and ranted and created ToS (wich I do like). But this created a hole in the early Avatar community that shouldn't have happened. I know people disagree, but can't we settle our differences for all our sakes...

Registered or unregistered?
Also looks like a stats reset for me, during the oscars threads were moving so fast nobody could keep up, the main thread would gain a page or 2 in the time it took to write a reply :P

So true... people here know me better than anyone, I've mentioned things I never have before, you are my true family, certainly know me a lot better than my IRL one.

I think we would. Personally, this is the only time in my life I HAVEN'T hidden things. It comes about because of a shared experience and understanding. We all learned to See.

I've said here many times... There was no single reason for creating ToS. Perhaps for some people there was one which made them come here, but nothing ever actually made that decision for us. Sure, there were a few things that in a way pushed it over the edge, but it was probably inevitable since about February.

You know, communism is great, because then people won't have to choose between 2 or more things, they have to use one single product. Isn't that awesome?

Well said...
A choice isn't a bad thing.

Hmm kinda agree...

Things are a lot simpler when there are fewer choices to pick but not everything is a one size-fits-all kind of deal and that's bound to create conflict when not everyone agrees in the same thing.

But yeah. When I read the post talking about the creation of ToS back on AF, it did make me feel a little anxious cause it meant that some people were never gonna be there anymore, as if they died and wouldn't be seen again :/

I do miss that feeling from AF's glory days though. Now I don't even bother going over there :(

I was sarcastic, you know :P

You're probably aware of this, but if you're not, let me just say more than 3,000 of those were "guests" generated by a glitch with the chat box. :P

The most users AF has had at one time was a little over 1,000 on the night of the Oscars.

We have drifted from this....alot of people on ToS bash AF, I persoanlly don't agree with putting down AF, It is still a "home" for us...AF brought us all together...

That quote I will never understand.

What quote?

X.,.Pandora.,.X: my comment was an extreme example, and of course it was sarcastic.

My point is - choice is something good, and it should be possible for multiple choices to spring out of unhappiness - which is what happened here.

Some members were unhappy with the direction AF was heading (again, let me point out - not a BAD direction, simply a direction unfit for some people and fit for others), so these members created a choice between two different forum models.

And that is something positive - where people can choose what they want.

Eltu-yes I know, I posted that before I read your next post...I thought I deleted that in time not for you to read it...disregard that post...

Cyan's quote:

Well, I'm not looking for another discussion about this - I've heard all the reasons and what not...but to explain my frustration with this quote:

"Mix" implies two things coming together, which in my opinion is not what happened.

"Potent" implies strength, which in my opinion didn't exist on AF after the split. There was still many great members there, and still are! But we did lose a lot of people amongst the confusion...

"Let's bond" implies the two communities would somehow share discussions or information. I guess this did exist through double posting, but it's not like the forums got closer from that.

"Extend the Community"... wasn't one of the biggest reasons for this site's creation the "tribe getting too big". So why try extending the community, as if the mission of the site was to reach new audiences? I know new guest are welcome, regardless, this just seems contradictory to me.

" :glol: " It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, perhaps depending on what site you were on...

That's my perspective. Please, I'm not looking for another argumentative discussion on this. Understand that everyone has a different perspective, in my case, I was a happy member of AF, then my friends left without saying goodbye. It was a confusing time, and although I was welcome here, I chose to stay on AF only due to time constraints. Again, not looking to start a discussion, I've heard it all...

X.,.Pandora.,.X: I use email notification - I always get all new messages, no matter if they are deleted or not ;)

(note that this is not an admin feature or anything - anyone can use this)

Not to be biased towards one particular forum but Tree of Souls has just pulled ahead of Avatar-Forums in number of visits to webpage (but A-F still holds a higher unique visitor count). You can view all of the stats on this webpage:

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