Tsahaylu, reproduction, sex and pleasure
 

Interesting discussion on IRC thanks to Eltu. We know that tsahaylu gives two Na'vi a really deep, unparalleled connection to each other, and is also a pleasurable experience. We also know Na'vi reproduce similarly to humans, although it is most likely that sex in itself would be pleasurable too.

The question is, would the Na'vi have sex simply for pleasure or not? This could be if they aren't mated with anyone, or even if they were. Obviously, there's the chance of pregnancy, but they could always use some form of contraception, or another theory was that there could be a biological element that only make reproduction possible with their partner they have made tsahaylu with.
Since the Na'vi lack many of the human taboos (e.g. wearing far less clothes than most humans), I'd doubt they would see sex purely for pleasure as wrong, and they would appreciate that people have basic needs, particularly since it's mentioned in the survival guide that choosing a mate can take years. On the other hand, when they've mated for life with someone, I'd see this as being less likely.

Personally, I imagine that it would be the same as it is for humans. if you saw your lover kissing, hugging and having sex with someone wouldn't you be annoyed? Sure, you have tsahaylu, but it's still the same in a sense... We have sex, but you dont want your lover kissing another man/woman...

I believe they only have physical sex with their lifemate, as that is also another way for deep connection, but not as deep as a tsahaylu. A tsahaylu with your lifemate is the ultimate intimacy. They probably have the same sexual desire as the rest of us humans.

That's why I said I doubt it after they are mated for life with someone, but before, I don't see any real problem.

I hate to piont out the obvious, but all Na'vi and avatars have navels; I mean, in the tank, you can see the umbilical attached to the avatars, so there must be sexual reproduction, mammalian style

I guess mating and tsahaylu are both inherent to each other. When the couple is mated, they don't necessarily have sex. When they do, however, they probably make tsahaylu again simultaneously with the sex. Think about it: two na'vi knowing exactly what the other one wants while copulating at the same time? It's basically twice the awesome.

That's my take.

I agree... also to just deeply think about these words... the ultimate intimacy... how incredible. Just the words gives me chills as I try to imagine the deepest connection the one has for the other. They each want each other, and when they can truly feel each others deepest feelings for each other, it makes them love each other even more. How incredible. What I would give for just one tsahaylu with a Na'vi who truly loves me

I'm sure they'd have sex for pleasure, especially because tsahaylu is pretty damn pleasurable, however I doubt(don't ask me why, I don't know) that they'd do the deed with anyone they weren't mated with, maybe because it makes it that much more special(we don't know enough about Na'vi culture at this point to say if they view sex as sacred -but not taboo-).


Once they're mated to someone, they would never want to have sex(w/o tsahaylu ofc) with anyone other than their mate(assuming this is what you're implying) because being mated is like love on roids. Again pre-mated we really don't know enough about Na'vi culture, for all we know Na'vi females can control when they're fertile.

TL;DR: We don't know enough about that side of the Na'vi culture, but my guess is that they don't do it until they're mated.

Yeah, JC confirmed they have human-like "parts."

Exactly... It's one of the things I really want most... I guess we just can't even imagine exactly how it would feel, it would truly be the best experience... To really know someone like that, to be so deeply connected... :(

I think any species sufficiently "intelligent" in the way, that they are able to realize sex can be used for more than just reproduction, would want to do so. Seeing as the pleasure is there as an evolutionary carrot to make them want to do it in the first place.

But as far as Na'vi are concerned, there simply isn't enough information to give out proper judgment on the matter.

I actually get the sense that they don't have sex a lot, or aren't supposed to. At least for pre-mated-for life-people. I think so because
1) They don't wear a lot of clothing. This makes me think they are mature to sexual desire. Like nudist for example, are (probably) at the point where they can look at people's parts and not want sex.
2) They seem very spiritual, and I get the feeling that all is sacred. Everything is sacred, including sex. Kinda like if you read about sex in passages from the bible or any holy text. It's not supposed to be done without true love (mated for life). Or at least thats what the parents tell their kids, but who knows what they really do.

I find the na'vi to be humans who follow the morals of a collection of real-life religions/philosophies. Like buddhism, and animismn and a lot of other isms. Everything they believe in is borrowed from a real religion, so I get the sense that holds true with sex. Most religions frown on pre maritial sex. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway.

I do believe they have 'casual' sex.

Casual not in the sense humans use it, but casual in the sense that a Na'vi may take many years to find a correct partner to mate with. I do in fact remember reading this somewhere... I'm not really sure if they have sex simply for pleasure, but I highly doubt it. I do also believe that tsaheylu would be reserved solely for life mates, although an 'unsucessful' tsaheylu could lead to tsaheylu with other individuals being made.

As Stanley said, just the thought of tsaheylu itself is enough to cause goosebumps. The idea of such deep connection and access to another's emotions is simply incredible.

All my thoughts exactly! Ditto! :)

Reminds me of this community. I can't feel your emotions, but in a sense, I can. We've all felt the same feelings and emotions associated with this movie. The same awe, the same wonder, the same longing, the same depression, the same enlightenment. And we share these experiences with eachother, so that in a way, yes - we do have a connection, and access to eachother's emotions. Take Profoundheart's famous "Hearts, Lies, and Love" thread. I think everyone who read it felt his emotions, even though we were far from physical contact, let alone, tsahaylu.

Don't undermine what we have. Being able to feel eachother's emotions the way we do in real life has its own quality. Not having a queue may seem limiting, but it can also make love special in its own way.

I was wondering the same thing. I am thinking that with Tsahaylu, it's like you are marrying someone. I think the Na'vi could have sexual relations without making Tsahaylu. In that case, they would not be mated for life.

I hate to be the spelling nazi guy...but it's *tsaheylu* not *tsahaylu* :P

:P

http://rc.vc/forum/grammar-nazi.jpg


(we still love you :D)

I think they probably have sex at the same time as tsaheylu. The two are intimately connected when dealing with two Na'vi who are lifemates. I think that tsaheylu is metaphorical for the connections are are meant to have with each other, with our environment, and God/etc. When two Na'vi connect in tsaheylu, it is a sacred and marital act. Hence, it is for life. Sex is a part of that. Granted, it seems that they can have tsaheylu without sex to heighten their bond but sex would be part of the bond as well by cooperating with the creation of a new life.

We also know that tsaheylu is used for bonding with the Ikrans and the other animals. The connection, as we know, is not the same thing as the connection between a Na'vi man and woman. The connection is similar to the bonds that are with a pet (ie. cat or dog, etc) or with a horse and rider.

In a way, tsaheylu is also a metaphor for the different forms of love that we discussed on another thread. The connections they make are indicative of their love for each other, Eywa, their families, and their environment. Total love and connection. We all need this. We can't physically connect in tsaheylu. The closest we can get is sex. That is why it is sacred too. It is the closest bond that we can make. That is also why many religions frown on pre-marital sex because it predisposes a deep, intimate connection and commitment. Without that, sex becomes cheapened and desacralized and ultimately unimportant and discarded :(.

But why? Isn't it up to the two people involved to decide their own commitment and such? For two willing individuals, sex is between them, and it's not really anyone else's concern. If they want it to be meaningless, it's their choice, as is treating it as a more emotional connection.

Why should sex be considered as some sort of sacred or mysterious etc. thing? I mean it's really the most basic human thing there is, and it's the sole reason and purpose of our existence.

I intended to write more, but it seems my brain is once again refusing to function properly.

You raise some good questions. I know that many people, especially in today's society look at certain religious prohibitions on pre-marital sex as being backward and silly. There are good reasons for it though. Sex creates a VERY strong emotional/physical/spiritual bond between the man and woman. Its very intimate and special. Sure, it is basic in its physical aspects ie. the biological need, the means of reproduction, etc. However, the emotional attachment that it produces is so powerful that even after two people break up the effects of it still endures. That could also be a reason for the emotional breakdowns, depression, etc that gets associated with a terrible break up.

Think about it. It is during sex that the people are at their most vulnerable. There is NOTHING hidden. There can't be. They are saying with their bodies,"I am totally and completely yours and you are completely mine." Nothing hidden. It is the ultimate expression of love. Because it is so intimate, I would think that the person would want to express their love in a sexual way with only one person, their lifemate which in most societies that is encompassed in a marriage.

Sadly, sex has been made a recreation, a pastime. It has been treated as nothing more than just a game, a thing to do. Get a quick pleasure and that is it. No love. No commitment. No sharing of intimacy. This is how it is treated in most movies, advertisements, music, etc. People who get caught up in it are often not happy. I have seen women emotionally ruined by it. In addition, pornography increases as a result of the cheapening of sex. Men and women are no longer considered full human beings with a mind and heart. No. They are treated as objects. Especially the women. Sex becomes an object. Women become an object. A commodity. Something to be used and thrown away.

I hope I am making some sense. I understand that it is a foreign concept to many people. I hope this helps :).

Exactly. I believe that for the Na'vi, casual sex is a choice. There are some that have sex just for pleasure, and others pursuing a more long term relationship. I don't see a problem with casual sex, especially among enlightened people, as long as its clear exactly what it means to each person, they both want each other for a night, and understand one another as a person.

However, I would think that tsahaylu is reserved for your true love, and once that has happened, you wouldn't want sex with anyone else anyway, because that person you are mated to becomes part of you. Having a deep understanding with someone, becoming one with someone, you don't need anyone else. That's the inherent beauty of tsahaylu. Intimacy to the point of becoming one, nothing needs explaining, no fights, grudges, distrust. Just beautiful, complete understanding, happiness, and love for everything partner is, mentally and physically.

Twice as awesome indeed. Wouldn't that be great?

Repunzel77, I agree with what you say. I think the same as you on this issue.

Seconded.

Rulunzle I could.not have said it better myself... Sex is such a beautiful gift that in today's society it's just a quick pastime. It always makes memsad to
see people take it out of contexts like that... To me sex is an extremely passionate thing (i have not experienced it yet but I have thought about the subject... I think we all have lol) but it's so deep, it's our connection to the others soul.

I understand just fine, and it's not that much of a foreign concept to me, although I have no personal experience on the subject, but that has never stopped me from being an armchair philosopher before.

But this issue is somewhat controversial to me, since I usually at least try to be a person of reason. On the other hand my other self is somewhat of a hopeless romantic, and therein lies the controversy, because there's nothing really romantic about reality, as we discussed before in the religious subject about the use of contraception.

Men and women treat sex differently because of our genetic drive. Men are programmed to have sex as much as possible, because for us, it's cheap. And thus for maximizing the chances of our genes living on in the next generation, we'd have to mate with as many females as possible. For women sex is more of an investment, and they can only do it once in terms of what genes tell them to do. This is what I meant when I said there's nothing romantic about reality. We are nothing more than slaves to our primordial needs, and that is never going to change no matter how much rules we put to try and restrain ourselves.

I'm getting all unstable again, since this is always an argument between the cynic and the romantic, and like I said, reality belongs to the cynic. Suffice to say that I understand the things you are advocating for and against, but sadly things are the way they are for a reason. I'd feel like a hypocrite trying to argue this matter one way or another, because of my "split personality". In the end however, much to my dismay, reality is the only thing that matters.

Once again I intended to write more, but this is all I can output for now.

Aquaplant, I totally agree with what you are saying. Though there is one thing that is different for us and that is we are sentient and we have cultures, traditions and many other things other animals in the same "survival of the fittest" game do not have. Of course it is paramount that we spread our genes to the next generation, but to say it is simply that for humans is too black and white. The love and emotions we feel and the traditions and values we hold have evolutionary benefit otherwise we wouldn't have them now! We hold the sentience to make the decisions ourselves, so we can choose to have casual sex for the fun of it (and use protection to avoid any accidents which isn't the aim of casual sex) or we can just have sex for creating life, or the many other options such as to enjoy sex with a partner you love, thus enhancing your feelings and relationship and in evolutionary terms strengthening the bond you have so if you happened to become pregnant, you would be stronger and hopefully both bring up the child in a happier environment.

I agree with what rapunzel said. Also, there actually is a chemical released in the human brain at orgasm called oxytocin. "Many studies have already shown a correlation of oxytocin with social bonding, increases in trust, and decreases in fear. One study confirmed that there was a positive correlation between oxytocin plasma levels and an anxiety scale measuring the adult romantic attachment" it also functions in "social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, trust, love, and maternal behaviors" --Wikipedia. It is the same chemical released in a woman's body when gives birth and when she is nursing to bond her infant. With this information, one could argue that sex is biologically meant to be an emotionally bonding experience between mates rather than purely recreational.

Edit: Just because someone lives in a culture where nudity is widespread is nude does not mean they are more sexual (I wonder what they would have thought about Jake staring at all the bare breasts, lol). Many indigenous cultures who wear zero clothing are actually very conservative when it comes to sex (like some of the indigenous peoples in New Guinea or the Yanomamo tribes in the Amazon). I personally believe that sex is a sacred, precious act, and not just because of moral/religious reasons (and I don't necessarily mean main-stream Christian ;)). Also, the fact that they kept the "mated for life" line in there without showing Jake and Neytiri performing tsaheylu makes the audience assume that them having sex was what bonded them together for the rest of their lives.

Second Edit: I wonder how many people here are actually talking from experience (meant to be purely rhetorical)

aoitennyo, I definitely believe that peoples personal experiences will shape what people say somewhat in regards of this topic. I like to think I'm rational and realistic but also an idealist with my head in the clouds at times. So I look at the evolutionary aspects but also the social/romantic aspects. Such conflicting thoughts!

Oh definitely. It is impossible for something you think not to be related to your experiences, since you are basically a mix of natural inclinations and personal experience (there was more smart-sounding stuff that was going to go there but I'm tired so it kind of... melted :P). I know what you mean by being a rational but romantic person. For an example, I see Avatar and while a part of me (call it the "artist") is just like "WOAH! Pretty!!! *absolutely in love*" another part of me (call it the "scientist") wants to know what the hell is going on in my brain that's making me go bananas.

Hmm... I like to think at it's base factor it's a primal urge, but because of the way we are - because of our minds and souls - it's also so much more than that. I will agree with what Rapunzel said. She put it in a way far better than I could.

As for stripping it down to esentially what it is, you could say the same thing about many, many different things.

Why do we enjoy eating different foods? At the end of the day, all it is is supplements and nutrition for the body, so why not just find one food (or a combination of foods) that gives us all the body needs and do nothing but eat that? We'd be getting everything we need after all...

The ancient Greek philosopher Parmenides said that if we are to obtain reliable information about the world, we must use our reason instead of our senses, because our senses are so limited and can deceive us.

I'd say it's always a combination of both, but the ratio may vary case specifically. As I stated before, I have no personal experience on the subject, so I must rely on my ability to think rationally.

Whew, I'm glad for the responses to my post. I wasn't sure how many would take it :). Anyway, personal experience does matter a great deal in this area and its true that the hormone oxytocin does play a significant role in the bonding process. My post was based in part on personal experience. Sadly, I know that not everyone has good experiences with relationships, sex, etc. As a result, many emotional problems can ensue.

As for as your last post Aquaplant, I couldn't agree more. It is a combination of both. We must use our reason and our senses. We are complex creatures. We don't just eat to nourish ourselves. We eat to enjoy and to socialize. Due to our social nature we bond around basic human needs: food, drink, etc.

When it comes to sex, men and women bond together on a very high and intimate level. It reaffirms love, trust, and commitment.

This is also why we are different from our fellow animal creatures. They live a different form of existence. They lack reason. They have some emotion as well but probably not to the degree of complexity that humans have. This is adds to our uniqueness. So it is with sex. For the animals, its the urge to reproduce. They know when that season is and they reach that goal. Some die in the process or soon afterward. There isn't any emotion involved or not very much. Granted, there are rituals that involve male preening and wooing. I'm thinking of the lengths that male birds go to to grab the attention of a willing female.

However, it usually lasts for the season. There are a few that take life mates but most animals do not. For humans, it take a man and a woman to raise children. Granted, it can be done with one but the ideal is for a man and a woman. This is one of the reasons why marriages are made. The children need the balance of the masculine and feminine to grow. In addition, it promotes stability.

These are a few of the reasons besides the ones I mentioned in my last post for why we are different from animals and also probably why the Na'vi have a similar understanding of relationships and family. Granted, in their tribes, it would seem that the whole tribe is responsible for raising the children. This is also the case in some societies in Africa, South America, etc. In a sense, tightly knit neighborhoods would help in the same way decades ago. I know that that is virtually impossible now in our highly mobile and in some sense isolated society. This is also why forging strong bonds are so important.

That's me as well, the deep emotion created when the na'vi couple are embrasing eachother. Makes me feel very emotional almost to the point of depression. I could say many things but I Just can't find the words to discribe it.

I still fail to see the reason why sex should be considered as somehow sacred. And to make things a bit simpler, I'm going to exclude the reproductive side out of this. It still has the problem between the casual sex between unknown partners, but to keep it even simpler, I'm not going there either.(I'm lazy, I know that)

So we take the classic scenario with two lovers, who are unsure about their future plans and such. They spend time together, enjoying each others company, but are not yet having sex. So what kind of magic border would that be, when having sex is just another step in showing how much they care about one another? Does it matter that they might not live the rest of their lives together, but for the time being when they have one another, why should they hold back?

And I'm not going to accept the argument, that breaking up after having sex is hard, because I'd think it would be almost just as hard when relatively long term relationship comes to an abrupt end.

I know emotional things are quite hard to tackle with rational thinking, but that doesn't mean they can't be. And once again referencing another Greek philosopher, Socrates, who said that the most important tool in search for knowledge is talking with many different individuals, and what better place than here?

I agree. It's a basic biological instinct, and we are rewarded for following it. If both people understand that it's nothing more, then I don't see the problem so much there.

As I said before though, then yeah, tsahaylu would only be becoming one with the person who you do truly deeply love and want to be with for life.

Depends. I've had a girlfriend before, she really wasn't the right person for me, but I never gained any kind of bond. I mean, we both knew it was nothing really serious, but that didn't stop enjoyment at the time.

I don't agree. Personally, I don't really even believe in marriage, it's a religious thing. If two people truly love each other, they don't need a piece of paper to say so. If they want to do it, fine, but they shouldn't have to.
Sex can be had without any further expectations or commitment, as long as both understand that. I'm not talking about between two completely random people, but between two people who there may be something, even if they aren't the ones who will end up being together for their lives.

I believe that sex wouldn't/shouldn't be a problem. Holding back would probably just make it more awkward when the time comes, and further, if they wanted sex and they were too shy to say it, this would put a sort of barrier in their relationship. If I ever get a girlfriend, I hope she shares yours and my views on the subject, and is upfront about it. Well said.

I tried to explain it the best way I could. I understand if you don't agree :).

I guess it is difficult to explain. I understand what you are saying. This is why it is a controversial subject since everyone has strong opinions on it.

True. I understand your argument on this. I've seen it become more difficult in a break up or close to one with a couple of friends that I have had.


Exactly :)

I understand your argument but I don't totally agree with it because just like everything that we are, we are made up of spirit and body. What we do in the body also effects our spirit. I believe that this is also true with sex.

Exactly. As humans, the closest that we can be to actually have tsahaylu is sex.


I know that we aren't going to agree on this :). I understand your position though.