My Thoughts on a Certain S.E. Scene (Spoilers)
 

...I'm probably the only person on both AF and ToS to actually think this way about this scene, but the thoughts going through my head about it just keep going on a loop over and over in my head. I've got to say something about it, so.... no one's going to like what I'm about to say. I posted this a little while ago on AF.


The Tsu'tey death scene was a good scene.... but I'd rather it wasn't added back in. It didn't belong. The "I see you" scene between Jake and Neytiri pretty much sealed the end of the war, and clasped everything into a sweet moment. It tied in perfectly with the shot of the humans boarding the shuttle.

I thought Tsu'tey's death took away the emotion felt during the "I see you" scene. You had your mind fully on their love, and their being together, seeing each other through their real eyes. But the death scene cutting in right afterward with Jake actually killing Tsu'tey, and Neytiri weeping over him was just an incorrect edit bout. You're supposed to have a clear, concise, close after a huge battle, and showing Jake mercy-killing Tsu'tey doesn't seal it. It just doesn't.

I completely understand the reason why Jake killed him (obviously; I adore the movie "The Last Samurai", so I'm not really against that sort of thing), but it took from the mood. The awkward thought of Jake actually being closed back up into his link pod by Neytiri in order to tend to Tsu'tey right afterward is really bothersome, and took my attention off the true melancholy nature of the tone being presented.

However, I adored the other scenes. As much as I believe the death-of-Tsu'tey scene is very powerful, and very heartfelt, I just don't think it belongs.



Now, I don't know if watching the special edition over and over again will purge these opinions of mine about this, but I have really strong doubts that I'll ever get used to it. So... if anyone wants to comment on why I might be wrong in my thinking, or why this scene really does belong, PLEASE! Share your thoughts, because I'm really at a loss, here.

I like it, but I can see why JC removed it. One beat too many. I think it might work better if they had some more lead in material before it rather than transitioning straight from the 'I see you' scene. As it is it's a bit fast paced and abrupt.

All the longer additions to the SE were out of place. They didn't forward the story much and didn't blend well in the edit - the most likely reason why they weren't in the first edition. They were all fantastic additions to the movie and I enjoyed this version better but from a technical standpoint, you can see why the material didn't make into the first cut.

All the tiny snippets of new footage fitted in well though. :)

My opinion of the Tsu'tey death scene was that it fitted well into the story

In the original version it's only implied that he dies. For a character such as Tsu'tey, showing him get shot and falling out the back of the shuttle is a piss poor way to end his character imo. Also seeing the responsibility of Olo'eyktan being passed to Jake ties in well with the end scene of him being transferred to his avatar.

The transition from the "I see you" scene to the Tsu'tey scene may have been a bit fast but to me at least, it didn't feel awkward. But of course that can be subjective.

There is one scene that didn't fit well in this movie, and that was the explanation of the floating mountains that Jake gives after he exits the sampson. It felt like it was tacked on for the sake of explanation instead of being part of the movie. Just the dialog and execution of that scene could have been done much better imo.

anyways it was late when I wrote this and tried to do my best :P

The whole scene might've fit better somewhere else, rather than after the "I see you" scene...

...but then, where else would it go, really? :S



EDIT: You know... what would've been perfect was if the dialogue were changed between Tsu'tey and Jake, when Jake answered Tsu'tey about how the People were safe, he could've said something like "almost", or something. Maybe the whole thing could've taken place before Neytiri attacks Quaritch; perhaps she could park the thanator next to the area and see Tsu'tey, with Jake arriving... ?

...Then, maybe... give something for Jake to do while Neytiri has some sort of anger rush where she mounts the thanator and starts searching for the last of the RDA (thus finding Quaritch). Then having Jake interrupt and start fighting him, and the movie goes on from there.

I dunno.

No place else to put it. It's either after the "I see you" scene or leave it out completely. perhaps a better transition?

lol, ninja'd. :P

haha, sorry :P

As far as your idea, i dunno either...

I agree that the scene wasn't in the best place. I think it should've been placed between when Quaritch was walking to the Shack in the AMP suit and when he and Neytiri were fighting.
Of course that would mean that Neytiri wouldn't be in the scene.
That and, what Jake said, "I'm not officer material", I don't think it was appropriate to the mood of the scene.

My only criticisms, but regardless I loved the extra footage

I'm thinking the same thing. Because it cut right to Tsu'tey, I didn't really have the high emotions that I normally get from the I See You scene.

It probably shouldn't have been in there at all, regardless of how good it was. :(

I pretty much agree with all the above.

I saw Avatar SE yesterday, and it was that AWESOME experience all over again! Man, how I missed seeing the movie in 3D on the big screen -- there's just no substitute.

I loved pretty much all the new footage, but the particular standouts were: "Grace's School" scene, and "Tsu'tey's Death" scene. I cried during the latter scene. I'm so glad JC put these scenes back in the film...IMO, he should've never taken them out to begin with! :)

I agree. The voice over seemed clumsy. It was nice hearing an explanation for them floating, even though I think that all of us already knew what caused them to float.

quoted for truth :)

3d is the way it's meant to be seen

I completely agree with the OP... Although it would have messed things up even more, I believe the Tsu'tey scene should have been before the "I see you" scene. As I say, that wouldn't make any sense and I still think the scene deserves to be in there but just... not there.

As you said Woodsprite, the I see you scene was the closer, the finisher. That was the end of it. The end of the war and the beginning of harmony again.

there is no possible way it could have been before the I see you scene

Yeah, I know that... I can't really say where it should go though.

I think the Tsu'tey scene was critical for his character and for the audience to come to terms with what would become of the Omaticaya people, as far as tribal hierarchy is concerned. Before knowing that Tsu'tey had officially passed over his authority, we only assumed that Jake would take the leading role since he was the Toruk Mak'to and since he is paired with the previous chief's daughter. But that was only an assumption, and I'm glad to see this scene actually hand over the leadership of the Omaticaya people to Jake. Also like another post mentioned, Tsu'tey's original death scene was just too short to be pleased with.

Timing-wise, it didn't really bother me. I love the scene with Neytiri finding Jake's human body and didn't feel it take away from that necessarily.

I agree with above about the one scene landing at Site 16 (is that what it's officially called? can't remember!). I had seen the art concept of this scene from the artbook, so I was happy to see it in the actual film, but it did feel awkward. The script at that part was a bit weak, but that isn't the only part in the film like that so it's ok. Not a necessary keeper but a nice short explanation of what a lot of people were probably wondering.

I really think it fit into the story well... perhaps it could have happened after the humans leaving, I'm not sure. I AM glad it did get put back in though, it was an important part of the story.

Then again, I did think that all of the new scenes fit in very well, with the possible exception of Jake and Neytiri at night (with the lizards, before the swimming part) - but that scene is so beautiful, I didn't really mind.

Did anyone think Neytiri's giggling during the extended fan lizard scene was a bit juvenile-sounding? By "juvenile" I mean "weird and childlike-stupid-sounding".

can you take a exopack while using the link?
cause basicly Quaritch smashed the windows like 3 min earlier, unless he run to Hell's Gate? (witch dont make sense either)

I don't see why he couldn't :P

Pretty sure the exopacks don't contain any electronics that would interfere with the link process. And Jake probably wouldn't have had enough time to go all the way back to the bio lab.

Well it didn't cross my mind when watching it but even if she did it would've been one of very few times in her life that she got to act immature. Being a princess, you know.

Makes sense to me, they're only filters, rather than anything electronic - characters are seen wearing metal objects while linked at various times.

I never thought about it that way really... it didn't really bother me.

sorry for the change in thread direction buuuuuuuuuuutttttt: did anyone after seeing the school scene end up more focused in wanting to know more about what happened there than the goings on in the movie? i mean WAT happened at the school!

Well, I wasn't more focussed on that than anything else...

But yeah, I was curious to know what happened. Although, by showing you just the aftermath, you can build up your own mental image of the incident... :S
I think maybe it would be a little blunt of them to outright show you what happened. I guess in a way it's a 'mark of respect'.

i think it would of been nice to flush some story and character development out for grace, which could of been done through further development of the school and that aspect of the story. you never know they may touch back on it in the later avatars.

I was thinking about the Tsu'tey scene after Woodsprite mentioned putting it before the Quaritch fight. I personally love the scene and I too cry or get choked up watching Last Samurai. It has the same feel and it needed to be added in.
There is a sequence problem with putting it before 'I see you'.
Think about where they are in the fight.
Neytiri is running through the forest while Jake is up dodging the shuttle. Jake falls while Neytiri is fighting and is found by the Thanator. How does she find Tsu'tey to tell Jake? Sure she has a comlink... but unless she backtracks and another Na'vi passes the word to her so she can tell Jake... there's a lot of story manipulation there.
I'll be seeing it again on Saturday, and see how Jake and Neytiri arrive at Tsu'tey's location.

One other thing that bothered me is the link module was compromised for air. Norm's link was smashed and even if Jake could use 'Beulah' the air was compromised. If he has to wear the mask while in the link it's going to be awfully uncomfortable, there isn't a whole lot of room and might interfere. This means traveling back to Hell's Gate to get to a working link.
This would be one explanation of why Jake is back at Hell's Gate to record his last entry.
I suspect that the extra footage on the dvd's might have some of the 'cut scenes' to provide extra background for this kind of awkwardness.

THERE'S SO MUCH MORE MISSING! ::sigh::

Who's... Ron?

Yep... wouldn't really make sense.

I don't see why an exopack wouldn't work in the link, characters are shown wearing metal objects in it before then, it even leaves the sides/back of the head clear.

They are big and bulky and wouldn't fit very well(I know I know...thats what she said :hmm: )

The sensor grid thing doesn't actually cover the face... Might be a bit tight at the sides but should fit (although really, the sensors at the sides are probably lower than the edges of the exopack anyway)

Remember how I said this in my first post?

Well, I just thought I'd bring this up again, though these are just my thoughts...

I watched the SE again, and tried to pay as much attention as I could, and hoped I could brainwash myself into liking the Tsu'tey scene where it is, as it is... and it sort of worked. Never thought I'd get used to it, but I'm starting to. :)

Though I still think it could've been placed between the Duel scene and the end of the overall battle, the heartfelt nature of the scene is just too captivating, especially seeing Neytiri's expression and tears as Tsu'tey utters his final words (in fact, Neytiri's facial movements looked the most real-looking here to me, next to the split second when she nudges Jake back with her ikran in the fly-training scene (where she smirks)).

But no matter how much I really, really love this scene, I just can't help but miss the old perfect climax from the "I see you" scene.


Just thought I'd let this out.

Now you highlight it I have to agree with you. I loved ALL the new scenes, especially the Tsutey scene with I found particularly harrowing btw but yes, we are over-flowing with love as Neytiri sees the real Jake which, as you say, closes the battle beautifully.

However, Tsutey was a proud warrior and this kind of termination was also common within Native American Indian Tribes as well as the Asian warriors, so I'm guessing he's saving face by having a ritual/honourable ending rather than dying due to the Vrrtep's bullets?

The scene had to be in, but again I agree that it perhaps shouldn't have been after the Pod 'I see you' scene. It's a shame Eytukan was killed off has he would have been perfect to have performed the ritual, perhaps back at the Tree Of Souls with ALL the Tribes present??

It would make no sense timeline-wise for it to happen before.

Would Quaritch sit around waiting for them? :P

Well, no. You're right...

Or, maybe it'd take him longer to find the shack...? :S I dunno.

I have already sicked a squad of ninja's on mr cameron. he is definitely on my **** list.

You see first it was a moment of JOY. TsuTey SURVIVED as I had hoped he did.

Then YOU Mr Cameron you evil SOB squash all that joy by KILLING HIM FOR CERTAIN.

Grrr the moment you stop making avatar stuff. Those ninja's have orders. So for you own sake don't stop making avatar stuff :-) hehe

Everything else was great. You could tell the CGI was not as polished in the addition but otherwise they were fantastic.

though the 3D gave me one hell of a headache. I could not find it in 2D anywhere so I was forced to pay to see 3D. (I only have one eye so I can NEVER see 3D real or otherwise)

I could still see the ghost of the polarized image so the whole filmed looked like a double offset exposure to me. If I have to again I am going to get my own glasses and put both lenses over my one eye and see if that filters out the 3D stuff.

Both over one means you wouldn't be able to see anything because they have opposite polarisation. Sorry to hear about that though :( - if you wait for the bluray then that will be 2D.
I didn't see much of a difference in the actual image quality myself, although I have heard some people saying the sturmbeest look less realistic, but I think that may simply be a combination of their makings and the fact there is nothing comparable on Earth.

Hmm actually I don't think you fully understand how 3D works.

3D works by putting THREE images on the screen.

1st image is the Movie itself in 2D

Second image is a polarized "ghost" shifted in one direction

Third image is a polarized "ghost" shifted in the opposite direction and polarized "off angle" to the first polarized image.

the right lens filters ONE image but not the other. the LEFT lens filters the one the right lens left behind but LEAVES the one the right lens filtered.

the result is EACH EYE see a different offset "ghost" that is "combined" in your brain with the main image (the 2d movie) creating a visual offset that your brain perceives as "depth" so you see "3D"

the problem is I only have one eye. SO my right eye SEE's the image that my LEFT EYE is supposed to see.

since I am only seeing half the process no MENTAL FILTERING and "COMBINING" comes into play so my brain perceives BOTH IMAGES separately.

IE I actually SEE the offset ghost. (looks like a screwed up double image to me)

The lens do NOT FILTER THE MOVIE. they only filter these "depth" ghosts. so in theory if I use both lens I will 100% filter all the 3D elements and just be left with the 2D movie and no headache :-)

Think about this. WHY Is your entire world view not a double image? you have TWO EYES so your brain is getting TWO images. NOT ONE.

yet you see one view? its because your eyes are basically seeing the SAME THING. so your brain "combines them" into a "single" world view image of whats in front of you.

if your two eyes see an incongruity your combined world view will break down and you will see two images or a screwed up single image (I have no idea what your brain will do with that as I have only one eye so I can not test it myself)

Let me give you an example.

if I put a set of goggles on you and show your LEFT EYE THIS

_ 2 _ 4

and show your RIGHT EYE THIS

1 _ 3 _

what will you see?

you will see this

1 2 3 4

as a SINGLE IMAGE. unless you SEE it from afar you will NEVER know your saw two completely separate incomplete images.

(as long as the images are otherwise identical ie no incongruities.) They actually used this for your DRIVING tests in some states. I almost got into a fight with the officer over this when he called me a MORON and uneducated because I only could see

1 _ 3 _ and thats what I told him (it did not light up till your FACE was in the machine so I never saw that it was a SPLIT IMAGE and since I had only one eye I could not SEE the left eye image so I had no "combined" world view that looked like what HE saw.

for me I would only see 1 _ 3 _

Needless to say I calmed down once I realized how the machine worked and proceeded to give the trooper a dressing down and a 101 educated on human vision and binocular world view image processing. He was no longer insulting me after that dressing down. (you see it states in BOLD at the top of my form NO VISION IN LEFT EYE because the people who filled that out KNEW it was critical and HE should have known how his own damned tests works. :-)

while YOU would see 1 2 3 4

you never NOTICE the "blank" spaces that are actually their because your brain "puts them together" into a single unified world view. it MERGES both eye views into a single view.

Mine does not. so I ACTUALLY SEE the blank space IE the "ghost double image" that is 50% of what is created to allow you to see 3D.

needless to say over 3 hours of seeing double can lead to a bit of a headache :-)

SO using both lenses should "filter" out all the 3D elements and leave me with a simple 2D movie without a double image, in theory :-)

as for CGI quality. Look at Augustines "arm" in the School house scene when she puts the book back on the shelf. the CGI "animation" is far less realistic here than anywhere else in the movie. Does not ruin the movie but it was just enough that I noted it from a technical aspect.